ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 18th, 2011 at 6:07pm:GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:53am:Prove absolutely that "mutation happens".
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8849244
Maybe you'll disagree, but understanding mutations is
part of modern medicine. If they don't exist, then why does "assuming" they exist (cause it's all theory of course) yield such positive results?
You said before that I "want to believe in this". That is wrong. I accept the evidence.
Quote:First you have to show us all that this "mutation" is actually different than any genetic coding in the ancestors. Otherwise it is simply a reshuffling of existing genetic coding.
So what does that make a single point mutation? What does that make a gene duplication? Or a single point insertion/deletion? "Reshuffling" or more generally speaking 'alteration" of the genetic code is exactly what mutation is?
So what is your problem with this idea of change in the genetic code? If "reshuffling" is ok why not an accumulation of changes over deep time to generate great change?
(This is just a guess, but I'm betting you don't accept the ancient age of the Earth).
There is nothing wrong with accepting evidence, just NEVER accept another person's conclusion, no matter who they are, until you understand ALL of the factors around this evidence.
When someone limits the "ways" of observing evidence and uses terms that are not scientific, such as the "magical" word "random", which is used every time humans have no clue what causes are going on.
"We see random mutations". "I am a degreed scientist PHD in genetics and I tell you that we see "random mutations".
Anytime a scientist uses the term "random" they are clueless as to the causes. It is a cover up for ignorance.
There is no evidence for exactly how old the earth is. I have looked at all the ideas of science and of religion and there is no way at the present time to determine with any accuracy how old the universe is nor how old the earth is.
But in today's time measuring is is far older than 6000 years old. But we have no idea the time measure from millions of years ago. We have no idea the speed at which atoms, matter, light or anything operated at. The universe is accelerating, we can see this in PHYSICAL evidence. It is also expanding and we can see that in PHYSICAL evidence.
This would indicate that time is not a constant that it changes as the universe changes. There is NOTHING that I have ever seen in the universe in all my studies on this, as constant, except change.
I know from fact that there is an eternal now that is the space of observation, but we as humans cannot remain there, until we are totally free of any controls emotions (beliefs) have over the mind.
I have avoided beliefs for most of my life, because my father taught me to never believe anyone, even him, on anything until you have real evidence that is clear. It is my mantra that humans are liars by nature, not by intent. That we lye to ourselves all the time for emotional reasons. I am not the first person on earth to understand this "obvious" truth.
It is only when you can "start" to find the objective awareness you were born with that you can get free of delusions. This evolution delusion is an easy one, because there is no evidence to support this idea.
From a perspective of NOW and being completely objective, is the only condition for a scientist to work hard to place their minds. Any belief is destructive to science and intelligence. One should never form beliefs or accept any ideology over another even if one calls itself "science" and the other calls itself "religion". Human "group think" has always been full of ignorance. Just ask the Jews of Germany in the 30's and 40's. That is a great example of what "group think" can do.
This is the Neutral Evolution Forum, where people are free to think for themselves and not from the HEMG pack mentality. Few people have the ability to get out of beliefs and seek objective truth.
In genetics we observe differences to DNA and differences in offspring. We have no idea the cause. We can see a continual overall degradation of the human genome, because we spent 3 billion dollars on the "Human Genome Project".
The "scientists" promised that when they spend this money they would be able to cure diseases. In ten years they are still in the dark ,but they continue to prove my premise and theory of continual weakening of the human genome by the exact same reasons that Evodelusionists think the genome is gaining in information or "evolving" or improving by "natural" selection.
Go get a copy of this chart from them. It is free paid for by the US government and taxpayers dollars.
I have dedicated a major part of my, now short, life in deep study of this "evolution" phenomenon in humans. I have "attacked" people to back up their beliefs with evidence. Thousands of them. I put up videos to get people to have disdainfulness for me and attack my character even.
I did this to get the most information as fast as possible on all the latest "findings" in the last 10 years, because they do not show this in the classroom.
Every 10 years or so I do an educational update on this Evodelusion phenomenon. The Internet just accelerates the knowledge and the best way is by confronting people with thier beliefs and they will give you ALL they got to "set you straight". The only problem is that all they got does not show evolution at all. It shows that the fossil record is correct, no evolution unless you are brainwashed into beliefs. It shows that there is still no evidence of any creature breaking the boundaries of their foundational genetics. It shows a continual degradation of the genome of all the animals I have studied and that includes humans.
It shows that "genetic engineering" is needed to do any improvements on human beings. We don't have a genetic engineer with any intelligence to do that on earth today, because scientists are lost in a pile of 18 century religious nonsense.
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Here is more on this from posting on youtube
@GoodScienceForYou We have a family in South America if I remember right from the video I saw, that is immune to the AIDs virus. That alone is improvement in a genetic lineage, and there are more.
We have piles upon piles of evidence for evolution. We have for any one God, usually only one holy book and nothing else to point to C.D. as evidence. C.D. starts out saying they have a theory, then tries to match choice bits to it. Evolution starts with evidence, then makes a theory. C.D. is backward
My response:
@KazeKirin I don't ever talk about anything but science. If youre still arguing creationism, vs Evodelusionism, then youre just proving that your "science" is a religion. If you had clear, absolutely irrefutable evidence for evolution we would not be discussing this at all. But since there is no evidence of any simple life form ever "evolving" into complex life as is the belief of the Evodelusion religion, you don't have much to stand on. Inference, implication and faith is not science.
GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin I counted as much as I could on the fine print of the human genome chart and there are at least 2000 known genetic defects in the human family. That is what we know. We don't know all of them yet.
In every case "natural" selection, surviving the flu, plague, heat, cold, whatever; it limits the genetic information to becoming less advanced and weaker so that if something that is "needed" has atrophied, we will die for lack of its function. Theres no evolution towards improvement.
GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin We now have the Human Genome Project with many genetic diseases shown in humans. We know they are genetic defects, because we still have examples of what it looks like in people without any particular disease. That is the most compelling evidence against any sort of magical genetic engineering taking place from natural cause. It is a gradual wearing down of the genome into a huge pile of genetic defects and weaknesses. Do you understand?
GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin 2 of 2 The net is a degeneration of the genome as it is will all cases of the "strong" surviving. It does not improve the whole of humanity to have diabetes and other auto immune diseases in the group. However, if I was going to choose a disease to have I would chose diabetes over death from polio or from any number of amazing microorganisms I have survived in 62 years in my travels around the world including many diseased in India that killed friends of mine.
GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin 1 o 2 I came from a genetic lineage that survived the plague, the famine, the swine flu of 1915. I have an extremely powerful immune system. The medical doctors told me I survived polio as a child. They have seen the same bone damage in my spine in other polio victims. However, I also have an auto immune disease, my brothers do, and my sisters. That is because the immune system is out of balance and destroyed my pancreas ability to make insulin. My sister rheumatoid arthritis. It is where the immune system eats the joints and causes severe pain and lack of movement.