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Only two theories, science or religion (Read 11660 times)
GoodScienceForYou
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #15 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 8:07pm
 

ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
What do you mean by "religious slogans"?


Religious slogans are like "evolutionary pressure",  "random mutations", presenting  "paleontology" a pseudo science based on opinions and nothing else.  "evolutionary morphology" and most of the degrees in this are fake science degrees.

There is no such thing as "evolutionary pressure". Anything that requires a creature to change to survive destroys it. That is why we are seeing only extinction with this environmental changes.

"Paleontology" is an art form, not science.  People's interpretation of anything is not science. Science means that everybody everywhere "sees" the same thing with no conjecture based on what they hope it is.

"evolutionary morphology" is nonsense made up to sound scientific. It is the religious idea that these "seers" can depict the past from fossils.   Primitave cultures can tell the future from reading "bones" too.

There is no use of the scientific method used in those slogans.  No one has ever performed experiments to prove those are even plausible ideas.

What they are is the student already believes from the pre-brainwashing on TV, from friends, teachers, parents and all the crap beliefs around them.
Then they take classes and never question these slogans. They are accepted with no reason for accepting them other than the "nice" teacher tells you that your grade depends on your belief in this garbage.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #16 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 8:27pm
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
Mutations are errors in duplication. I can't see the validity of your point that mutations can only exist if you can show the cause. If a change has occurred then it has occurred, why is it necessary to prove the cause? We also return to my original question of where the boundary between genetic lineages is; as far as I know there is no such boundary.


There are no "errors in duplication". This is one of those religious slogans that has no merit.  There is no way to know where these "differences" come from, so people make up ideas of "errors" to fit the religious beliefs.


It is obvious, when you  just look at the evidence. Creatures are only programmed to survive, not to evolve.  They are only programmed to survive as the same creature.

The Galapagos finches are perfect examples. The chicken teeth DNA perfect example. The Italian Wall Lizard, and so on.  They only make DNA adjustments to preserve the same creature.  When the ability to adapt as the same creature is met, extinction is the result.  If the adaptation needed exceeds what is in the genetic structures, they die.

There is an obvious structure that requires exact precision to live. When that structure can not live under the conditions it dies.  If that foundational structure is incorrect it dies from "genetic diseases".  Like no bird lives under water, no fish lives on land. No mammal can live below freezing without shelter. No creature can live without food.

If one base pair being "wrong" can cause sickle cell anemia, think what 100 base pair scrambled by "random" can do.  It destroys the creature.

There is no such thing as random changes to DNA from parent to offspring. There is only genetic information that holds the genetic structures to function within these boundaries.

More tomorrow.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #17 - Jan 16th, 2011 at 4:23pm
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 7:48pm:
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
Personally, I find comparative anatomy to be far more compelling than DNA evidence.




Comparative anatomy is a religious idea.  It allows a lot of room for "feelings", "brainwashing", "belief", and other human failings that can never be tested.

OPINIONS are never evidence.

I have looked at all the fossils that I can stand to look at in 42 years. And there is no trail of evolution anywhere.

When I was young I was introduced to this idea that these fuddy duddys were out there telling me what this fossil was and what that fossil was, but they had no physical evidence to back up their beliefs.  It was clear that they were purposely imposing belief on the fossils.

Without the belief, there is no evidence "for" evolution  in fossils.


Nice how you completely ignored what comparative anatomy actually shows.

Why should all mammals have the exact same bones, but just differently proportioned? Why should the laryngeal nerve take the route it does?

These are evidences, not proof, but they are compelling when looked at together. Evolution explains them all.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #18 - Jan 16th, 2011 at 4:30pm
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 8:07pm:
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
What do you mean by "religious slogans"?


Religious slogans are like "evolutionary pressure",  "random mutations"


Mutations happen, if you want to ignore that you can, but it doesn't change the facts.

By "evolutionary pressure" I assume you mean "environmental selective pressure" which again is, unfortunately for you, an undisputed fact. It's actually more than fact - it's common sense. Individuals within populations have a variable chance of survival. Those that do survive will pass on their genes. It's obvious.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #19 - Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:37am
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 16th, 2011 at 4:23pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 7:48pm:
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
Personally, I find comparative anatomy to be far more compelling than DNA evidence.




Comparative anatomy is a religious idea.  It allows a lot of room for "feelings", "brainwashing", "belief", and other human failings that can never be tested.

OPINIONS are never evidence.

When all the evidence only points to de-evolution, gene losses and reduced fitness in all multi-cellular creatures, then we know for absolute that evolution is fraud.
DNA is absolutely irrefutable evidence of de-evolution and degradation of the genomes of all creatures.

I have looked at all the fossils that I can stand to look at in 42 years. And there is no trail of evolution anywhere. There is only genetic lineages and gene losses, gene degrading, reduced cell development with improper coding, atavisms, and complete utter destruction of traits that were used for survival.

When I was young I was introduced to this idea that these fuddy duddys were out there telling me what this fossil was and what that fossil was, but they had no physical evidence to back up their beliefs.  It was clear that they were purposely imposing belief on the fossils. DNA is the needed physical evidence and it only shows de-evolution or continual degradation of genomes.

Without the belief, there is no evidence "for" evolution  in fossils.


Nice how you completely ignored what comparative anatomy actually shows.

Why should all mammals have the exact same bones, but just differently proportioned? Why should the laryngeal nerve take the route it does?

These are evidences, not proof, but they are compelling when looked at together. Evolution explains them all.


Comparative Anatomy is based on opinion, not on evidence. When you understand the nature of humans to believe in things they don't understand, and for some of the dumbest reasons, you will be on your way to freedom.

Comparative Anatomy is a religious idea. Any one who is considered an expert and destroys or mutilates any evidence and forces belief on it, is not a scientist.

The only thing you have shown me so far is that you want to believe in this.  You have not produced any real objective reasoning.

"the laryngeal nerve take the route it does?" This shows a degradation away from the original design.  It is definitely showing de-evolution.  It shows less fitness.  Not the magical idea of mystical improvements over time.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #20 - Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:47am
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Dec 21st, 2010 at 4:33pm:
Mr. Truth Seeker wrote on Sep 17th, 2010 at 6:11pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Sep 15th, 2010 at 9:30am:
Mr. Truth Seeker wrote on Sep 10th, 2010 at 5:02pm:
It seems there are only two theories:
1. Theory of Evolution (the How, not the Fact)
2. The "poof" Theory of religion

Any other theories?




You do not need theories. ....


The Theory of Evolution is a religion.

Now where is your absolute evidence for evolution?


There is none.  You win.


I hope GSFU never sits on a jury. It would definitely be hung.

But it cannot be said that evolution does not have overwhelming evidence in its favour. Furthermore, it is a unifying theory that explains everything we understand about the ability for life to adapt at the observable level.

We can take what we know and observe and extrapolate to the beginnings of life, which makes it a unifying theory. And since it has practical applications in the real world, and observable data, even if only at a relatively small level, I find that the extrapolation is not unwarranted. Here is a theory that leaves out any magic and/or miracles to explain biology. What is beautiful about it is the biological example that is used to illustrate it - the tree; always growing, always stretching, always searching. Some leaves and branches will die off, but the tree survives.

Personally, I find evolution to be quite enlightening, and if there is an alternative explanation I've yet to hear one.


I have sat on a jury and convicted the criminal.  There is this thing called evidence and when all the evidence LINES up perfectly, then you can make judgments.

I have taken a look at all the evidence we have and I have made judgments that actually fit the evidence.

Evotards do not look at any evidence with any objectivity. They are brainwashed into a belief system before any evidence is actually presented, and then the only evidence they get is polluted by the believers who teach this garbage.

Evotard are not able to see what is right in front of their noses.  And Evotard would walk along and see a turd on the ground and convince themselves that was evidence for evolution.  I am not kidding that is how messed up these people are.

There is no need for any alternative explanation that contains no evidence as this crap does. Humans can take anything and manipulate it into any friggin religious belief and Evodelusionism is not science but is a mythological religion.

Religious answers are not science. They are based on faith and only faith. The belief is first then the conclusion.  Pseudo Scientists read in things that are not contained in evidence.

Evolution has overwhelming evidence against this magical nonsense that simple life has "evolved" in to complex life. This is because there is absolutely no evidence for that.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #21 - Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:53am
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 16th, 2011 at 4:30pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 8:07pm:
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
What do you mean by "religious slogans"?


Religious slogans are like "evolutionary pressure",  "random mutations"


Mutations happen, if you want to ignore that you can, but it doesn't change the facts.

By "evolutionary pressure" I assume you mean "environmental selective pressure" which again is, unfortunately for you, an undisputed fact. It's actually more than fact - it's common sense. Individuals within populations have a variable chance of survival. Those that do survive will pass on their genes. It's obvious.


Prove absolutely that "mutation happens".   I have never seen any form of evidence for this idea.  All I hear are beliefs that what they "see" is mutation. First you have to show us all that this "mutation" is actually different than any genetic coding in the ancestors.  Otherwise it is simply a reshuffling of existing genetic coding.

This is for absolute sure: These idiots have no idea the cause of any differences in any DNA coding.  They project nonsense magical beliefs in ideas that violate the first laws of science.  Any "science" that violates any laws of science is a "pseudo science" and should not be taught in schools as science.

If you want to teach this garbage to your children don't do it in public schools where NO religious nonsense should be allowed.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #22 - Jan 17th, 2011 at 1:13am
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 16th, 2011 at 4:23pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 7:48pm:
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 12:22pm:
Personally, I find comparative anatomy to be far more compelling than DNA evidence.




Comparative anatomy is a religious idea.  It allows a lot of room for "feelings", "brainwashing", "belief", and other human failings that can never be tested.

OPINIONS are never evidence.

I have looked at all the fossils that I can stand to look at in 42 years. And there is no trail of evolution anywhere.

When I was young I was introduced to this idea that these fuddy duddys were out there telling me what this fossil was and what that fossil was, but they had no physical evidence to back up their beliefs.  It was clear that they were purposely imposing belief on the fossils.

Without the belief, there is no evidence "for" evolution  in fossils.


Nice how you completely ignored what comparative anatomy actually shows.

Why should all mammals have the exact same bones, but just differently proportioned? Why should the laryngeal nerve take the route it does?

These are evidences, not proof, but they are compelling when looked at together. Evolution explains them all.


Take a look at the horse "fossils" and tell me what that shows you? Then I will tell you what it really shows and EXACTLY why.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #23 - Jan 18th, 2011 at 6:07pm
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:53am:
Prove absolutely that "mutation happens".


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8849244

Maybe you'll disagree, but understanding mutations is part of modern medicine. If they don't exist, then why does "assuming" they exist (cause it's all theory of course) yield such positive results?

You said before that I "want to believe in this". That is wrong. I accept the evidence.

Quote:
First you have to show us all that this "mutation" is actually different than any genetic coding in the ancestors.  Otherwise it is simply a reshuffling of existing genetic coding.


So what does that make a single point mutation? What does that make a gene duplication? Or a single point insertion/deletion? "Reshuffling" or more generally speaking 'alteration" of the genetic code is exactly what mutation is?

So what is your problem with this idea of change in the genetic code? If "reshuffling" is ok why not an accumulation of changes over deep time to generate great change?

(This is just a guess, but I'm betting you don't accept the ancient age of the Earth).
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #24 - Jan 21st, 2011 at 12:45am
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 18th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:53am:
Prove absolutely that "mutation happens".


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8849244

Maybe you'll disagree, but understanding mutations is part of modern medicine. If they don't exist, then why does "assuming" they exist (cause it's all theory of course) yield such positive results?

You said before that I "want to believe in this". That is wrong. I accept the evidence.

Quote:
First you have to show us all that this "mutation" is actually different than any genetic coding in the ancestors.  Otherwise it is simply a reshuffling of existing genetic coding.


So what does that make a single point mutation? What does that make a gene duplication? Or a single point insertion/deletion? "Reshuffling" or more generally speaking 'alteration" of the genetic code is exactly what mutation is?

So what is your problem with this idea of change in the genetic code? If "reshuffling" is ok why not an accumulation of changes over deep time to generate great change?

(This is just a guess, but I'm betting you don't accept the ancient age of the Earth).



Bacteria is a totally different species than any other form of life.  It has complex programming to survive NO MATTER WHAT.  Its ability to adapt and to survive is clear and it does adapt to many forms of attacks from its environment.
If bacteria were to not survive neither would we.  It is obviously genetically engineered to survive so that we and all life on earth as we know it will be able to live.

You cannot live without bacteria. It is a primary ingredient to life.  The cause of these "mutations" is unknown. They cannot see the programming that makes bacteria so powerful at adapting.

Bacteria has never evolved or become more complex.  The ancient cultures of bacteria were actually able to withstand much higher temperatures.  There are still stains of them on this planet, in case we need them.

My conclusions are based on observation study and having no beliefs.  If you are objective and not succumbing to others opinions you  too can see what is going on.


In order to make a statement of fact about something that you know nothing about, you have to see the cause 100%.

There is not one single "scientist" who knows the cause of the DIFFERENCES in DNA.  They go on belief and state that these are magical mutations with random causes. They don't have the slightest clue where the programming comes from that drives the genome to survive.  And the only thing shown in the genome is this drive to survive.

We can see up to 30,000 differences in DNA just from smoking. This shows that the human genome is trying to survive based on information contained in the coding. 

In all events that have hit humanity there is nothing but a continual degradation of the human genome.  The net result is a much weaker species with many genetic illnesses. We have many imbalances.

When an event such as the plague hits or the famous swine flu, and only a group survives with an exceptionally powerful immune system that is out of balance from the rest of humanity you get people with genetic illnesses such as auto immune disease, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, all caused by an overly agressive immune system that eats up joints, body parts, bones, islets in the pancreas that create insulin.

They don't seem prone to cancer though. That is a different genetic lineage.

In every case of "survival of the fittest" the genome gets farther out of balance and has more genetic illnesses.  The environment doesn't make stronger, it allows imbalances to rule. 

When we look at the human genome we can see thousands of genetic illnesses have been identified. All of them are from "evolution" which is really a reduction in information and causes such things as pseudo genes showing atrophy of parts of the genome that was there and used to survive under different environmental conditions.

If those original conditions were to show up then those who still have that gene may survive.  It is best to balance the gene pool better than to continue to isolate and hate different races and cultures. 

In the Nordic countries type 1 diabetes is rampant. It is an auto immune disease in which a virus comes along and the bodies immune system is on overdrive and destroys the virus but also destroys the pancreas ability to produce insulin.

So if you are saying that "mutation" shows any improvement from the original genetic engineering, you are completely wrong.  All events that evolution believes are the cause of "improvement" are the cause of imbalances.

This is shown very well in DNA. Go get a copy of the human genome chart showing all the diseases they have identified so far and they are just beginning.

We also have new auto immune diseases that were never heard of before. 

Single point "mutations" are always detrimental if they are caused by environmental poisons.   As soon as the genetic structure that was working fine to produce cells is disrupted in anyway we get genetic illnesses.  Many of the genetic illnesses that are easy to spot are now being used to abort babies.  The only "cure" we have is killing off our babies.

It is only when we can restore the correct genetic engineering that we can cure all these "genetic diseases".

We know that there is a correct genetic engineering because we can see it in people who do not have a particular genetic disease.  But in all cases every person has genetic diseases.

The word "disease" means that the body functions are not running smooth and are not at "ease".  Imbalances in the body are the cause of all genetic illnesses.
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Re: Only two theories, science or religion
Reply #25 - Jan 21st, 2011 at 8:26am
 
ElectricRussel wrote on Jan 18th, 2011 at 6:07pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:53am:
Prove absolutely that "mutation happens".


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8849244

Maybe you'll disagree, but understanding mutations is part of modern medicine. If they don't exist, then why does "assuming" they exist (cause it's all theory of course) yield such positive results?

You said before that I "want to believe in this". That is wrong. I accept the evidence.

Quote:
First you have to show us all that this "mutation" is actually different than any genetic coding in the ancestors.  Otherwise it is simply a reshuffling of existing genetic coding.


So what does that make a single point mutation? What does that make a gene duplication? Or a single point insertion/deletion? "Reshuffling" or more generally speaking 'alteration" of the genetic code is exactly what mutation is?

So what is your problem with this idea of change in the genetic code? If "reshuffling" is ok why not an accumulation of changes over deep time to generate great change?

(This is just a guess, but I'm betting you don't accept the ancient age of the Earth).



There is nothing wrong with accepting evidence, just NEVER accept another person's conclusion, no matter who they are, until you understand ALL of the factors around this evidence.

When someone limits the "ways" of observing evidence and uses terms that are not scientific, such as the "magical" word "random", which is used every time humans have no clue what causes are going on.

"We see random mutations".  "I am a degreed scientist PHD in genetics and I tell you  that we see "random mutations".

Anytime a scientist uses the term "random" they are clueless as to the causes. It is a cover up for ignorance.

There is no evidence for exactly how old the earth is.  I have looked at all the ideas of science and of religion and there is no way at the present time to determine with any accuracy how old the universe is nor how old the earth is.

But in today's time measuring is is far older than 6000 years old.  But we have no idea the time measure from millions of years ago. We have no idea the speed at which atoms, matter, light or anything operated at.  The universe is accelerating, we can see this in PHYSICAL evidence.  It is also expanding and we can see that in PHYSICAL evidence.

This would indicate that time is not a constant that it changes as the universe changes.  There is NOTHING that I have ever seen in the universe in all my studies on this, as constant, except change.

I know from fact that there is an eternal now that is the space of observation, but we as humans cannot remain there, until we are totally free of any controls emotions (beliefs) have over the mind.

I have avoided beliefs for most of my life, because my father taught me to never believe anyone, even him, on anything until you have real evidence that is clear.  It is my mantra that humans are liars by nature, not by intent. That we lye to ourselves all the time for emotional reasons.  I am not the first person on earth to understand this "obvious" truth.

It is only when you can "start" to find the objective awareness you were born with that you can get free of delusions.  This evolution delusion is an easy one, because there is no evidence to support this idea.

From a perspective of NOW and being completely objective, is the only condition for a scientist to work hard to place their minds.  Any belief is destructive to science and intelligence.  One should never form beliefs or accept any ideology over another even if one calls itself "science" and the other calls itself "religion".  Human "group think" has always been full of ignorance. Just ask the Jews of Germany in the 30's and 40's. That is a great example of what "group think" can do.

This is the Neutral Evolution Forum, where people are free to think for themselves and not from the HEMG pack mentality. Few people have the ability to get out of beliefs and seek objective truth. 

In genetics we observe differences to DNA and differences in offspring.  We have no idea the cause.  We can see a continual overall degradation of the human genome, because we spent 3 billion dollars on the "Human Genome Project".

The "scientists" promised that when they spend this money they would be able to cure diseases.  In ten years they are still in the dark ,but they continue to prove my premise and theory of continual weakening of the human genome by the exact same reasons that Evodelusionists think the genome is gaining in information or "evolving" or improving by "natural" selection.

Go get a copy of this chart from them.  It is free paid for by the US government and taxpayers dollars.

I have dedicated a major part of my, now short, life in deep study of this "evolution" phenomenon in humans.   I have "attacked" people to back up their beliefs with evidence. Thousands of them.  I put up videos to get people to have disdainfulness for me and attack my character even.

I did this to get the most information as fast as possible on all the latest "findings" in the last 10 years, because they do not show this in the classroom.

Every 10 years or so I do an educational update on this Evodelusion phenomenon. The Internet just accelerates the knowledge and the best way is by confronting people with thier beliefs and they will give you  ALL they got to "set you straight".  The only problem is that all they got does not show evolution at all.  It shows that the fossil record is correct, no evolution unless you are brainwashed into beliefs. It shows that there is still no evidence of any creature breaking the boundaries of their foundational genetics.  It shows a continual degradation of the genome of all the animals I have studied and that includes humans.

It shows that "genetic engineering" is needed to do any improvements on human beings.  We don't have a genetic engineer with any intelligence to do that on earth today, because scientists are lost in a pile of 18 century religious nonsense.
------------------------------
Here is more on this from posting on youtube

@GoodScienceForYou We have a family in South America if I remember right from the video I saw, that is immune to the AIDs virus. That alone is improvement in a genetic lineage, and there are more.

We have piles upon piles of evidence for evolution. We have for any one God, usually only one holy book and nothing else to point to C.D. as evidence. C.D. starts out saying they have a theory, then tries to match choice bits to it. Evolution starts with evidence, then makes a theory. C.D. is backward

My response:

@KazeKirin I don't ever talk about anything but science. If youre still arguing creationism, vs Evodelusionism, then youre just proving that your "science" is a religion. If you had clear, absolutely irrefutable evidence for evolution we would not be discussing this at all. But since there is no evidence of any simple life form ever "evolving" into complex life as is the belief of the Evodelusion religion, you don't have much to stand on. Inference, implication and faith is not science.

GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin I counted as much as I could on the fine print of the human genome chart and there are at least 2000 known genetic defects in the human family. That is what we know. We don't know all of them yet.

In every case "natural" selection, surviving the flu, plague, heat, cold, whatever; it limits the genetic information to becoming less advanced and weaker so that if something that is "needed" has atrophied, we will die for lack of its function. Theres no evolution towards improvement.

GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin We now have the Human Genome Project with many genetic diseases shown in humans. We know they are genetic defects, because we still have examples of what it looks like in people without any particular disease. That is the most compelling evidence against any sort of magical genetic engineering taking place from natural cause.  It is a gradual wearing down of the genome into a huge pile of genetic defects and weaknesses. Do you understand?

GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin 2 of 2 The net is a degeneration of the genome as it is will all cases of the "strong" surviving. It does not improve the whole of humanity to have diabetes and other auto immune diseases in the group. However, if I was going to choose a disease to have I would chose diabetes over death from polio or from any number of amazing microorganisms I have survived in 62 years in my travels around the world including many diseased in India that killed friends of mine.

GoodScienceForYou
@KazeKirin 1 o 2 I came from a genetic lineage that survived the plague, the famine, the swine flu of 1915. I have an extremely powerful immune system. The medical doctors told me I survived polio as a child. They have seen the same bone damage in my spine in other polio victims. However, I also have an auto immune disease, my brothers do, and my sisters. That is because the immune system is out of balance and destroyed my pancreas ability to make insulin. My sister rheumatoid arthritis. It is where the immune system eats the joints and causes severe pain and lack of movement.


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