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Starting Point (Read 6062 times)
Eric
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Starting Point
Sep 1st, 2011 at 1:30pm
 
       In any debate on any subject we must be clear that we understand the subject that we are arguing about and in this case that is evolutionary biology. Now don’t take this as a insult goodscienceforyou but I have watched a lot of your videos and have come to the conclusion that you don’t understand what evolution is and what it entails. So I would like it if you would give me a brief understanding of what you think evolution is and how it operates. In other worlds how according to the theory of evolution did we get the diversity of life we have today? Note I’m not asking you to disprove evolution nor argue against it I just was to know that we are on the same page in terms of what this debate is about.
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Re: Starting Point
Reply #1 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 10:51am
 
This is the definition of evolution and it is the
only
one.


Evolution:  "that theory which sees in the history of all things organic and inorganic a development from simplicity to complexity, a gradual advance from a simple or rudimentary condition to one that is more complex and of a higher character."  Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language.

This is the definition of evolution and it is the only one.

Evolution has not taken place in biology, because every speices has "downgraded" from the ancestors.  They were far more fit in the past.
I have several samples of this on here.
Goto the AlanCFA post tread.

There is no possible way for simple life to evolve.  There are no magical mutations that fix screwed up DNA, genetic structures.

Do you have any evidence that refutes this?  It must be absolute evidence, physical, and has no belief in it. 

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Eric
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Re: Starting Point
Reply #2 - Sep 2nd, 2011 at 12:04pm
 
“"that theory which sees in the history of all things organic and inorganic a development from simplicity to complexity, a gradual advance from a simple or rudimentary condition to one that is more complex and of a higher character." Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language. “

I wasn’t asking for a definition I was asking for you to explain to me the process of Evolution. For example if I ask you to give me an understand of what the Theory of Relativity is and you state

“the Webster’s dictionary defines Relativity as formulated essentially by Albert Einstein, that all motion must be defined relative to a frame of reference and that space and time are relative.”
this definition doesn’t give me anything but a brief and vague description on what I want to know.  Now how does evolution work according to you and your understand of it.


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Re: Starting Point
Reply #3 - Sep 3rd, 2011 at 5:31am
 
Eric wrote on Sep 2nd, 2011 at 12:04pm:
“"that theory which sees in the history of all things organic and inorganic a development from simplicity to complexity, a gradual advance from a simple or rudimentary condition to one that is more complex and of a higher character." Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language. “

I wasn’t asking for a definition I was asking for you to explain to me the process of Evolution. For example if I ask you to give me an understand of what the Theory of Relativity is and you state

“the Webster’s dictionary defines Relativity as formulated essentially by Albert Einstein, that all motion must be defined relative to a frame of reference and that space and time are relative.”
this definition doesn’t give me anything but a brief and vague description on what I want to know.  Now how does evolution work according to you and your understand of it.



The ORIGINAL idea of evolution was the humans evolved from some form of "lower life" less complex and as time went on they gained in intelligence.

The idea is to eliminate this idea that we were designed and our genetic structures magically appeared by accident.

Genetics, speciation, adaptation, and de-evolution is all we see in the real world of biology. 

There is no mechanism in DNA, mutations, adaptation that shows any possible way for disorganized pieces to assemble themselves over any length of time.

Listen to these videos carefully and understand that this is from accredited PHD resources.  I quote them exactly.  I list all the known DNA mutations that are supposed to cause evolution.




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Eric
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Re: Starting Point
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2011 at 3:07pm
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Sep 3rd, 2011 at 5:31am:
[quote author=55425358544654300 link=1314905422/2#2 date=1314986648



The ORIGINAL idea of evolution was the humans evolved from some form of "lower life" less complex and as time went on they gained in intelligence.

The idea is to eliminate this idea that we were designed and our genetic structures magically appeared by accident.

Genetics, speciation, adaptation, and de-evolution is all we see in the real world of biology. 

There is no mechanism in DNA, mutations, adaptation that shows any possible way for disorganized pieces to assemble themselves over any length of time.
[/quote]




I'll restate my request again. I want to you explain how evolution works not a vague overview on what it does or why you think it is wrong. How does evolution suggest how all life came about. What is the mechanism according to evolutionary theory? Note against I do not want you argument against evolution I just want to you explain it to me so we can have a clear foundation and an agreement on what it is.


Think of it this way according to evolution how did we go from Chimps to humans. Again I want to restate that I'm not asking you to disprove this idea or to disagree with it. I just want to know if you understand the process of evolution.

I'll restate my request again. I want to you explain how evolution works not a vague overview on what it does. How does evolution suggest how all life came about. What is the mechanism accourding to evolutionary theory? Note against I do not want you argument against evolution I just want to you explain it to me so we can have a clear foundation and an agreement on what it is.


Think of it this way accourding to evolution how did we go from Chimps to humans. Again I want to restate that I'm not asking you to disprove this idea or to disagree with it. I just want to know if you understand the process of evolution.
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Re: Starting Point
Reply #5 - Sep 5th, 2011 at 4:13pm
 
Quote:
The ORIGINAL idea of evolution was the humans and all life evolved from some form of "lower life" less complex and as time went on they gained in intelligence, fitness, grew arms and legs, magically.

The idea is to eliminate this idea that we were designed and to teach people that our genetic structures magically appeared by accident. It is magical thinking to its max.

It is really an ideology and not a science. It is popular because humans like the idea that each generation "is getting better" but they are mutating faster than ever and mutations are 99.9% bad.



Genetics, speciation, adaptation, and de-evolution is all we see in the real world of biology. 

There is no mechanism in DNA, mutations, adaptation that shows any possible way for disorganized pieces to assemble themselves over any length of time.






Eric's question again:
I'll restate my request again. I want to you explain how evolution works not a vague overview on what it does or why you think it is wrong. How does evolution suggest how all life came about. What is the mechanism according to evolutionary theory? Note against I do not want you argument against evolution I just want to you explain it to me so we can have a clear foundation and an agreement on what it is.


Think of it this way according to evolution how did we go from Chimps to humans. Again I want to restate that I'm not asking you to disprove this idea or to disagree with it. I just want to know if you understand the process of evolution.

I'll restate my request again. I want to you explain how evolution works not a vague overview on what it does. How does evolution suggest how all life came about. What is the mechanism accourding to evolutionary theory? Note against I do not want you argument against evolution I just want to you explain it to me so we can have a clear foundation and an agreement on what it is.


Think of it this way accourding to evolution how did we go from Chimps to humans. Again I want to restate that I'm not asking you to disprove this idea or to disagree with it. I just want to know if you understand the process of evolution. [/quote]


GoodScienceForYou answer based on the evidence:

We did not go from Chimps to Humans according to this theory as it is taught today.

Chimps and Humans share a common ancestor as is shown in DNA.

I am assuming that you must know this.

However, DNA ONLY shows genetic loss, not genetic gain of any increase in fitness.

So that means that the common ancestor of humans was a far superior human.

Do you know the genetics behind the Chimp and Human link?  If you don't I put the video up on here for you to see. It is compelling evidence that only points to a superior common ancestor with much greater fitness, once you realize that all the DNA data only shows genetic loss.

This is the part of Theory of Evolution that is false.  It is also false to include this as any part of biology, because there is no data to even suggest this is true.
Evolution: "that theory which sees in the history of all things organic and inorganic a development from simplicity to complexity, a gradual advance from a simple or rudimentary condition to one that is more complex and of a higher character." Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language.

This idea of "change over time" is not evolution.  The believers in this religion got into academia and changed the definition to fit with normal genetic changes and adaptation.
However, there is not one single shred of real evidence that shows any possible way for a tiny single celled creature to "evolve" into all the mass of biological creatures we have today.

DNA only shows genetic losses, atrophied genes (pseudo genes), and screwed up DNA producing diseases.

There is no such thing as evolution in science. There is only genetics, and the study of genetics only shows as time goes on generation by generation a gradual loss of fitness, less fitness for environmental changed and eventually extinction.

The theory of evolution has been changed to include natural genetics, but natural genetics has no evolution in it.

So what is your point?

Genetics, passing traits, and general genetic loss is not evolution. It is how all creatures eventually go extinct.

If you have specific questions on the Chimp and Human connection I will teach you.



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Re: Starting Point
Reply #6 - Sep 5th, 2011 at 4:36pm
 
I have already gone over all the premises of the theory of evolution.

The idea of survival of the fittest, natural selection, speciation, random mutations and mutations, genetic genetic phylogeny and fossil tree of life before that and more. The study of fossils, the idea that humans evolved from fish and the
DNA in fish that make them believe this. Much of it is pretty funny and how they work so hard to make this idea real.
I have read over 27000 papers on this subject.  Discussed this with hundreds of PHD's of this and a lot of people who have agendas.

I posted all of this earlier on.
Do I really have to repeat it. OK here it goes.  that fish got out of the water, grew legs, walked on land, turned into reptiles, reptiles turned into birds and mammals, and eventually by this  process that  has no evidence, man started out as some ape like dude that turned into apes and humans and monkeys.

A lot of people who are trolls ask this question, because they are taught to do this.  If the "other guy doesn't understand the theory that negate him right away."  I really hate that nonsense.

I have studied this longer than most people have been alive, so I know not only how it is taught today, but how it was taught 40 years ago and how it has "evolved" into a huge pile of incongruousness that somehow is put together to make people think it is real.

If you would like to discuss any of them, just bring them up.  I am patient with this and as long as you are open to discussion and can stand my abhorrence of religious ideas in science.

It is much better to just get to the point of the absolute evidence we have.
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Re: Starting Point
Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2011 at 5:43pm
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Sep 5th, 2011 at 4:36pm:
I have already gone over all the premises of the theory of evolution.

I posted all of this earlier on.
Do I really have to repeat it. OK here it goes.  that fish got out of the water, grew legs, walked on land, turned into reptiles, reptiles turned into birds and mammals, and eventually by this  process that  has no evidence, man started out as some ape like dude that turned into apes and humans and monkeys.




     This is why I asked because the process you described is not evolution. Evolution operates within  population not individuals growing random body parts, remember evolution modifies existing structures (body parts) to adapt to different selective pressures in a different environment. Individuals that are best suited for the ecological niche pass their traits into the population at a higher frequency. It doesn’t create new body parts only changes to existing ones slightly to increase sexual fitness with in its population.  Evolution is only population dynamics. It is the swell and retraction of beneficial and deleterious traits.   
     Nor is development linear in that it produces BIGGER, STRONGER, and BETTER organisms due to the fact that those traits don’t always necessitate a higher rate of sexual fitness. Sometimes it is beneficial to be bigger and at other times it is not.

This is what Darwin argued.

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Re: Starting Point
Reply #8 - Sep 7th, 2011 at 3:13am
 
Eric wrote on Sep 5th, 2011 at 5:43pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Sep 5th, 2011 at 4:36pm:
I have already gone over all the premises of the theory of evolution.

I posted all of this earlier on.
Do I really have to repeat it. OK here it goes.  that fish got out of the water, grew legs, walked on land, turned into reptiles, reptiles turned into birds and mammals, and eventually by this  process that  has no evidence, man started out as some ape like dude that turned into apes and humans and monkeys.




     This is why I asked because the process you described is not evolution. Evolution operates within  population not individuals growing random body parts, remember evolution modifies existing structures (body parts) to adapt to different selective pressures in a different environment. Individuals that are best suited for the ecological niche pass their traits into the population at a higher frequency. It doesn’t create new body parts only changes to existing ones slightly to increase sexual fitness with in its population.  Evolution is only population dynamics. It is the swell and retraction of beneficial and deleterious traits.   
     Nor is development linear in that it produces BIGGER, STRONGER, and BETTER organisms due to the fact that those traits don’t always necessitate a higher rate of sexual fitness. Sometimes it is beneficial to be bigger and at other times it is not.

This is what Darwin argued.



Eric you seem to be a mindless parrot of faith and belief.  Do you really think that "evolution" has any connection to science? I feel sorry for you, that some how you can twist your mind around this ridiculous idea that has no evidence to support it.

Obviously you have not studied evolution as I have.  You don't have a clue what it really means.  You accept the double speak of this crap religion of Evodelusionism.

It is a religious idea that has no evidence.  Genetics and gene loss is science.  This is not. It is an ideology based on religious slogans.  It all sounds so scientific, but the obvsious and easy to see facts are contrary to it.

There is no genetic mechanism for adding complexity, such as intelligence to a creature.  There is only shown in DNA a constant gentic degradation. 

Humans are getting less intelligent, less healthy, and are heading NOW in a short life of ignorance and suffering, because of genetic degradation.

Humans have degraded more in the last century than in the last 5000 years. This is from modern mutagens, and diseases created out of ignorance.

I posted several examples.  To give people a start to realize what is really going on. People who are intelligent and not emotionally driven will read what I say, get triggered to think about it and do their own investigation on it.  Those who are emotionally driven as you  seem to be, will ignore the evidence.

That is how I learned. I investigated ever premise of science that man has to offer.  And I found that MOST of it is limited by beliefs that are not contained in evidence. This includes physics. There is now a whole religion in physics of mumbo jumbo that they make up a new mathematics to razzle dazzel people and say crap like.  "If you think you understand quantum, then you don't understand it."

Humans make up new religious crap all the time and disguise it as "science". The "scientists" understand this, but the stupid lay people must bow down to "science", the new God of perpetuated ignorance, that feeds into whatever political crap is in effect at any time. This is the same as all religions of the past that were mixed in with academia.

This has never happened in biology:  Evolution:  "that theory which sees in the history of all things organic and inorganic a development from simplicity to complexity, a gradual advance from a simple or rudimentary condition to one that is more complex and of a higher character."  Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language.
And that definition is the end of the line on this trip they take students to.
When someone is taking you for a ride in a care and they put on a blindfold, called indoctrination, and you allow it to take place, you are not in control of your mind.
I never eat something without knowing what it is.  I never allow anyones beliefs to control me or my mind.
The real science involves undrstanding what the "final premise" or where this crap is taking you to, FIRST.

In indoctrination classes, they never tell you were this crap is taking you until you are indoctrinated to the point of believing anything they teach you.

They put in things that are "believable" at the beginning and contain some truth, but not all the truth.  Then they continue until you believe the final premise and somehow become a blitering idiot in the process.

The reality is that they actually believe that fish evolved into humans.  If you don't know this then you are not a good student and you do not have the capacity to protect yourself from indoctrination.

The teachers of this nonsense had the same thing happen to them, in exactly the same indoctrination and so it is perpetuated by a lot of really nice people who think they are and totally believe they are on the side of "good".

It is a mythological religion and nothing more.

IN DNA evidence we know for an ABSOLUTE FACT, UNDENIABLE BY A SANE PERSON, that it is irrefutable that there is only genetic degradation shown in all multicellular creatures. Even the history of gene loss is seen in "gene atrophy", "pseudo genes", and "genetic diseases".

This is the absolute evidence that shows that genetics has a one way path of degeneration from the "more perfect" to the less fit and sick, then extinction.

We have nothing but extinction shown in this world in all the fossil record, except for the hearty species, like mosquitos, geckos, crockodiles, who maitain the same morphology.
The rest seem to degrade much more rapidly.  Humans are the fasted of all the degrading species known to science.
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Re: Starting Point
Reply #9 - Sep 8th, 2011 at 7:53am
 
Eric wrote on Sep 4th, 2011 at 3:07pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Sep 3rd, 2011 at 5:31am:
[quote author=55425358544654300 link=1314905422/2#2 date=1314986648



The ORIGINAL idea of evolution was the humans evolved from some form of "lower life" less complex and as time went on they gained in intelligence.

The idea is to eliminate this idea that we were designed and our genetic structures magically appeared by accident.

Genetics, speciation, adaptation, and de-evolution is all we see in the real world of biology. 

There is no mechanism in DNA, mutations, adaptation that shows any possible way for disorganized pieces to assemble themselves over any length of time.




(The quote part of this program seems to be messed up. here is your statement in quote marks.)
"I'll restate my request again. I want to you explain how evolution works not a vague overview on what it does or why you think it is wrong. How does evolution suggest how all life came about. What is the mechanism according to evolutionary theory? Note against I do not want you argument against evolution I just want to you explain it to me so we can have a clear foundation and an agreement on what it is.


Think of it this way according to evolution how did we go from Chimps to humans. Again I want to restate that I'm not asking you to disprove this idea or to disagree with it. I just want to know if you understand the process of evolution.

I'll restate my request again. I want to you explain how evolution works not a vague overview on what it does. How does evolution suggest how all life came about. What is the mechanism accourding to evolutionary theory? Note against I do not want you argument against evolution I just want to you explain it to me so we can have a clear foundation and an agreement on what it is.


Think of it this way accourding to evolution how did we go from Chimps to humans. Again I want to restate that I'm not asking you to disprove this idea or to disagree with it. I just want to know if you understand the process of evolution. [/quote]"

MY ANSWER:

We did not go from chimps to humans. Chimps are our genetic cousins. They came from a tribe of humans that degraded a long time ago.

It is not about some half baked theory that others have imposed on you. It is about how to find the truth when you have the absolutely irrefutable evidence available to you.

You don't need a theory, you need the truth.

When you think you are in the correct ideology becasue you left another ideology behind:

1/ Most people are ruled by other people. Theyre tribal by nature and want to belong, to groups. So they get into other forms of indoctrination easily, and don't realize that too is an ideology disguised as something other than the ideology you just got free from. As soon as you profess your allegiance to any man made ideology, you make a mistake and get your ego and relationships with others based on that ideology, thinking it was the right thing to do at the time.

2/ It is like the drunk who has to get away from all his drunk buddies in order to stay sober; No difference. If you write a book or profess it in public, then you really mess up your life and now what do you do? Well all too often people realize they screwed up way late, and have money, livelihood and reputation on the line with this ideology so they die supporting delusions or the confess on their death bed. It is far better to stay away from all HEMG imposed on you and seek only truth. 

People who teach crap ideologies to children are the most screwed up, because they now have to admit what they have done to these children in order to get free. That is not likely. They normally die with the delusions fully in control.

3/. So, often the people with the ideology are in positions of authority made by man made icons. religion, phylosophy, science, etc as my videos explain. These authorities are often delusional people who are just repeating what was brainwashed into thier minds and they do it exactly the same way to you that they were brainwashed. They totally believe they are on the correct side of ethics and are the "good" people in any controversy. That is how screwed up humans can get.

4/ In science this idea of peer review, is really just social pressure to conform to the accepted ideological beleifs of the time. Especially in science that is based on inference, implications, beliefs where the ideology comes first and it is superimposed on anything they see or any evidence. Belief destroys credibility for a scientist: scientific suicide. Unless you have absolutely irrefutable physical evidence that is recognized by all people, you can't make any conclusions.

5/ The word conclusion means that your statements are final on the subject and cannot be refuted by anyone. Conclusion means final. Suppositions are not conclusions. inferences are not. In real science we seek only to find the truth in the matter. The truth in the matter requires absolute evidence that cannot be denied by a rational person who is not controlled by ideology. Once you have THAT evidence then every premise, every peice of eivdence only points to that conclusion.


6/ So you test the conclusion by testing against all the evidence we have on the subject. After you test it with at least 1000 peices of data and they all concur you are on the right path. After you test every known idea of this science agaist this conclusion then it is over, that is the law that governs this part of science. It becomes the law and is how real science is done.

7/ When politically driven ideologies rule there is no real truth in them. They are there because the politicians of the time want that for the control they need to stay in power.  It is just how humans operate.  Sad but true.  The institutions are all about politics and the lowest common denomenator, money and power. They don't really give a hoot about the truth or anything.  Just money, power, prestige, and feed the ego. 

8/ When you as an individual realize this, you are part way on your path to emotional, mental freedom. It is hard to let go of ideas that you may base part of your life on, but that is what is required to grow into the truth.
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