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Here comes another one. (Read 20306 times)
bevolve
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #15 - Oct 27th, 2011 at 8:07am
 
I am in fact reading everything that you post. There are two reasons I am not responding to each and every thing you say.
The first reason is to keep the discussion managable. I read other discussions you have had with people, and they quickly became absurd while trying to juggle a million different points at once. The second reason is that most of what you are saying is not argument at all. So I am responding to relevant arguments, and not responding to random assertions and rants.

There is no scientific evidence for your conjecture of genetic degredation. You make it based on the arguments in your videos, but it is nonsensical without the assumption that evolution needs 51% random positive mutations to work. I still hold this as untrue, and you have yet to explain where this idea comes from.
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #16 - Oct 27th, 2011 at 11:49am
 
bevolve wrote on Oct 27th, 2011 at 8:07am:
I am in fact reading everything that you post. There are two reasons I am not responding to each and every thing you say.
The first reason is to keep the discussion managable. I read other discussions you have had with people, and they quickly became absurd while trying to juggle a million different points at once. The second reason is that most of what you are saying is not argument at all. So I am responding to relevant arguments, and not responding to random assertions and rants.

There is no scientific evidence for your conjecture of genetic degredation. You make it based on the arguments in your videos, but it is nonsensical without the assumption that evolution needs 51% random positive mutations to work. I still hold this as untrue, and you have yet to explain where this idea comes from.


Obviously, you don't have any information on DNA, and that is probably because of the closed mindedness of this religion.

There are over 89,000 thousands of papers on DNA, gene loss, and gene loss as a major part of "evolution" on the pubmed site.

There is the project called the Human Genome Project, in which the US paid over several millions of dollars to get this data.
They have mapped over 4600 genetic defects that cause genetic diseases.

Why don't you know this already, if you are educated?  Could it be that your education is really indoctrination?

Do you know there is a 6.1 million year old human upright fossilized femur? It is identical to modern human in angle, but has more bone mass and is straighter. Indicating superior species to what we have now.

Why don't you know about this? It is public record and pretty easy to find.

Go to the AlanCFA thread and start reading. I posted peer reviewed information there.

I don't juggle a million points at once. Just two or three. I am capable of over digesting over 100 pieces of data and tying them together quickly.

I expect people who are educated to be able to understand two or three points at once.

If you don't start to catch on soon, I will just drop you and you can stay with your religious human emotional mental garbage.

Do you understand how if you want to indoctrinate someone you use truth mixed in with the nonsense? That is an old method used by cults.
Do you understand that religious slogans backed by no data, no use of the scientific method are not real? 

Evolutionary pressure, not real.
Random Mutations, not science. There is nothing random in this universe.
Transitional Fossils do not exist except in the reverse towards less complex and less fit.

If you can't keep track of several pieces of data and use that to test any premise with, then I don't know why you are in science?

That is required for any form of understanding of evidence. 

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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #17 - Oct 27th, 2011 at 11:53am
 
bevolve wrote on Oct 27th, 2011 at 8:07am:
I am in fact reading everything that you post. There are two reasons I am not responding to each and every thing you say.
The first reason is to keep the discussion managable. I read other discussions you have had with people, and they quickly became absurd while trying to juggle a million different points at once. The second reason is that most of what you are saying is not argument at all. So I am responding to relevant arguments, and not responding to random assertions and rants.

There is no scientific evidence for your conjecture of genetic degredation. You make it based on the arguments in your videos, but it is nonsensical without the assumption that evolution needs 51% random positive mutations to work. I still hold this as untrue, and you have yet to explain where this idea comes from.


In order to have any form of "evolution" you must have more positive mutations than negative.  This is so obvious, that I don't even know why I have to say this.

If humans have over 4600 known to cause genetic diseases and only 4 believed to be positive mutation, that is overwhelming negative results in actual evidence.

There is no possible way for you to extract a religious idea from absolutely irrefutable physical evidence that ONLY shows a NET genetic degradation.

If you don't understand this, then you are just not capable of learning anything that is real or obvious.
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Reply #18 - Oct 27th, 2011 at 12:23pm
 
http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-spontaneous-mutations-important-mental-retardation.html

This is obviously from mutagens in the environment at the time of conception or in the uterus.

Have a pregnant woman stand in front of a microwave that leaks.
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #19 - Oct 27th, 2011 at 12:55pm
 
The reason you shouldn't try and talk about too many things at one time is that it makes it too easy to avoid the important points by flooding the conversation with worthless space filler.

I previously stated my reason for disagreeing with your assumption of the necessity of 51% net positive mutations.

" The reason I disagree with this stems from my education on the process of natural selection. Mutated genes that lead to bad effects on the fitness of an individual will be less likely to be passed on than those genes that are beneficial. Therefore, over time, they will disappear from the gene pool as individuals carrying those genes die without reproducing. The occasional beneficial mutated gene will propagate more successfully and therefore become more common in the gene pool."

It is more impressive when one is capable of responding to a specific point in a coherent manner than it is to bring up 20 different unrelated, erroneous points.
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #20 - Oct 28th, 2011 at 12:54am
 
" The reason I disagree with this stems from my education on the process of natural selection. Mutated genes that lead to bad effects on the fitness of an individual will be less likely to be passed on than those genes that are beneficial. Therefore, over time, they will disappear from the gene pool as individuals carrying those genes die without reproducing. The occasional beneficial mutated gene will propagate more successfully and therefore become more common in the gene pool."

This is a religious statement that has zero evidence.

It is the crux of your faith and belief.

ONE MORE TIME;  The negative mutations in humans, dogs, sheep, all complex animals are far more than any positive mutations.
If a mutation does not kill the species it will carry on in its negative fashion.  It will diminish fitness in the whole genetic lineage and it shows in all complex species.  Speciation is always from mutations that cause genetic losses. 

This is in absolutely irrefutable physical evidence.

If you don't accept the evidence then you are avoiding it. Most of the ET's avoid evidence like it was a plague.

The Evodelusionists fabricate religious ideas and then teach this crap to young children, just like you.  Then like all forms of child abuse, it gets taught to the next generation out of the "goodness of your heart". 

This is how delusional human emotional mental garbage is propagated.

Now, slogans are not evidence.  Do you understand what I said?  Slogans, religious concepts, are not evidence.

Here is from the book of fantasy:
"Then the merry humans walked along and his bad mutations died out and his good mutations remained.  So, little child you are so much better than your parents...smarter, cuter, etc. The magic good mutation fairy gives you your smartness and cuteness."

This is the human emotional garbage that children eat up, because they want to.

"my education on the process of natural selection"

In other words you are indoctrinated and you think this crap is real.  You think that slogans repeated over and over by "educators" are real. 

Have you ever seen this process?  Have you ever checked with the evidence?

This is the predecessor to the modern cat.

...

...

This is a modern cat.

...


Which one is more fit to survive? More complex?
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #21 - Oct 28th, 2011 at 12:58am
 
Here is the degenration of the horse from your classic example of the horse fossils.

If you open your eyes you will see much more complex bone structures capable of traveling on much more rugged terrain in the oldest fossils. Much more flexible and able to get footing on many surfaces.

As time goes on the complexity is reduced by mutations and your "natural selection" is towards less fit to survive in multiple environments.

When a creature has anti-evolution and is degrading in its complex functions as is shown in ALL the evidence you will see what I call genetic and physical splits.  This happens when the creatures do what is known as "speciation". They split off from the original family of the parent of the genetic lineage.

You have to go backwards with this in time to realize that the parent of all speciation splits was much stronger, more complex and far more advanced in terms of survival and genetic features for survival.  The horse is another example.

You will notice that the oldest of the "horse" as it is believed to be from paleontology and what they think is the ancient horse, that this creature has far more complex bone structure in its legs. As it goes along to the "modern" horse it has lost many bones and flexibility in the legs. This has cause the horse to be more limited, rather than more complex.

...
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #22 - Oct 28th, 2011 at 5:03am
 
Here is the mouse and rodent family.

The predecessors to the rat:

...

...

The modern Rat in New York City:

...
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #23 - Oct 29th, 2011 at 1:48am
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14525925

Gene loss, protein sequence divergence, gene dispensability, expression level, and interactivity are correlated in eukaryotic evolution.
Krylov DM, Wolf YI, Rogozin IB, Koonin EV.

National Center for Biotechnology Information, National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20894, USA.
Abstract
Lineage-specific gene loss, to a large extent, accounts for the differences in gene repertoires between genomes, particularly among eukaryotes. We derived a parsimonious scenario of gene losses for eukaryotic orthologous groups (KOGs) from seven complete eukaryotic genomes. The scenario involves substantial gene loss in fungi, nematodes, and insects. Based on this evolutionary scenario and estimates of the divergence times between major eukaryotic phyla, we introduce a numerical measure, the propensity for gene loss (PGL). We explore the connection among the propensity of a gene to be lost in evolution (PGL value), protein sequence divergence, the effect of gene knockout on fitness, the number of protein-protein interactions, and expression level for the genes in KOGs. Significant correlations between PGL and each of these variables were detected. Genes that have a lower propensity to be lost in eukaryotic evolution accumulate fewer substitutions in their protein sequences and tend to be essential for the organism viability, tend to be highly expressed, and have many interaction partners. The dependence between PGL and gene dispensability and interactivity is much stronger than that for sequence evolution rate. Thus, propensity of a gene to be lost during evolution seems to be a direct reflection of its biological importance.
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #24 - Oct 29th, 2011 at 8:22pm
 
"Genes that have a lower propensity to be lost in eukaryotic evolution accumulate fewer substitutions in their protein sequences and tend to be essential for the organism viability, tend to be highly expressed, and have many interaction partners."

You missed the point
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #25 - Oct 30th, 2011 at 2:43am
 
bevolve wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 8:22pm:
"Genes that have a lower propensity to be lost in eukaryotic evolution accumulate fewer substitutions in their protein sequences and tend to be essential for the organism viability, tend to be highly expressed, and have many interaction partners."

You missed the point



You are lost.  I am sorry for you.

If after the absolutely irrefutable physical evidence we have you are still promoting religious ideas from believers, you don't understand science at all. 

Your whole statement is nothing but a repetition of magical thinking from some "expert" (high priest of your screwed up religion). 

Even with all the mechanisms built into a species, they cannot overcome eventual mutations that will overtake even the function to fix screwed up DNA/cells. 

This is why cancer is so prevalent today, and we have over 4600 genetic defects from mutations causing diseases.

Only weak minded people accept religious slogans as if they were backed by evidence. They are not.

DNA shows exactly the opposite.  It only shows a gradual weakening of creatures and less and less adaptability until they can only exist in one environment and that leads to extinction.  This is reality.

You are one of the "earth is flat" people. The ones who will eventually have to go extinct for the truth in genetics to be allowed.

Why are you so lost? Why do you believe in magical nonsense, when all the evidence we have only shows a gradual genetic loss that only heads towards extinction.

There is no magical mutations that fix things.
There are no magical mutations.

What you believe in is this idea that you can drive your car into a tree, then your magical thinking tells you to drive it into another tree to fix it.

That is how ignorant you seem to me.

How did you  allow religious slogans from humans who are only perpetuation some myth to control your mind?

Here is the reality. In complex, multicellular creatures the mutations that do not kill, will become part of the species and continually degrade it.

Chimpanzees are direct evidence of this. They are much younger species than humans and are from a human tribe that was separated.
This tribe was exposed to mutagens at a much higher rate than modern humans.

Humans had a fusion of chromosome number 2 after the chimp/human split.
The chimps degenerated in different ways, mostly in spine hips and brain, which can be seen in the DNA between the two species.

Chimpanzees are nearly extinct, so are gorillas, and orangutans.  The weakest genetically will be the first to go extinct, because  it will no longer be able to reproduce.

Chimps are a message to humanity of what "evolution" really is. They came from the same exact genetic super human lineage as we did.

This is clear from the DNA, Chromosomes, ERV's, and from studies of chimps and humans characteristics. 

If you want to see where we are heading, look at our cousins.

The depressed smaller skull is self evident. The HAR-1 genes in Chimps show 18 deleterious mutations that have retarded mental abilities.

ALL of the evidence only points to genetic degradation and extinction if mutations are allowed to take place.

With all the modern mutagens humans have created, we are speeding up the process and this idea of Evolution is helping to destroy humanity, by giving false hope, and promoting a poor lifestyle for humanity.

If you promote this fantasy, mystical nonsense, you are helping to promote much more rapid extinction of humanity.

You are supporting the continual suffering and continually shorter lives with less and less intelligence, less awareness, and ultimately degradation into a complete animal with short lives.

Humanity is your god, and that "god" has made nothing but errors in judgement, errors in understanding science, and errors with mythology imposed on its children as you have been.

Only God can save us. 

The Genetic Engineer that designed us and set us free to screw up, will have to fix us or let us go extinct.

When people lose family members from genetic diseases, cancer etc, they blame God, but it is was humans who disregard the rules of life that promotes any possible form of genetic improvements.

In order to allow any positive mutations to work you  have to stop all the negative ones.  The odds are about 1200 to 1 from data of that ever happening.

However, stopping the cause of mutagens is to also stop the cause of the destruction of the planet.

Those things are directly tied together in absolute scientific evidence, that you  seem to want to ignore in your state of indoctrination and wanting to believe in mythology.

Avoiding reality is what most humans do and that is the cause of our diseases, our weaknesses, and the fact that we humans are so stupid.

Genius people will often tell others how stupid mankind is and how stupid they are. This is because the more you understand the more you realize your limitations.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein

I have given you enough to get free, and you can only come back with "opinions". 

You don't even know that opinions from the high "priests" of this religion are not evidence.

The evidence is that conforming to human emotional mental garbage makes people stupid. And only really stupid people allow themselves to be manipulated into conformity in order to get a degree, get money, sex, or whatever "floats your boat".
Pride of status is a horrible human disease. 
\
When I ask for evidence I don't want you to come back ever again with some religious slogan that you believe. 

If we are going to discuss this, you have to understand the difference between religious slogans and science.
You think that because someone is called a scientist, that they are scientists?  That is your first problem.

There is no science called evolution, and anyone who believes in this crap is religious and not very bright.


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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #26 - Oct 30th, 2011 at 8:47pm
 
Your inability to understand the topic of a scientific paper is probably one of your larger setbacks. The paper you quoted said the opposite of what you think. Read in order to understand, not in order to find things that back up what you already believe.
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Re: Here comes another one.
Reply #27 - Oct 31st, 2011 at 6:36am
 
bevolve wrote on Oct 30th, 2011 at 8:47pm:
Your inability to understand the topic of a scientific paper is probably one of your larger setbacks. The paper you quoted said the opposite of what you think. Read in order to understand, not in order to find things that back up what you already believe.



I have read over 27,000 papers on this subject.  When they use the word evolution, you have to ignore it and just look a the evidence.  That is how you get past the religious crap.

You need to just read what I am teaching you and see if you can falsify it.  That should be fun.

You are closed minded and are fully indoctrinated.  It is a bad place for a human to be. Sorry about that.

Why would you want to live in this darkness of ignorance imposed on you from others?   Why?

You inability to understand just the evidence without any of the interpretation is your problem.
It is the repeated use of the word "evolution" means nothing to a real scientist.
The faith and belief is like a huge elephant in the room on most if not all of these papers from believers.
It is impossible for them to interpret data, because of the religious beliefs.

So, if you have any objective reason, you would know this already.  The data is what is important not the opinions on the data.
Geeze! The brainwashing in you is a horrible thing for me to deal with. It saddens me to think that you are this lost.  I can't believe that people are so easy to have this crap done to them. 

If you never allowed any faith and belief from another human to sway you. It is the only way to objective intelligence.

"Never believe anyone on anything, not even me, but instead find the truth for yourself."

In order to get unscrewed from the brainwashing, you have to take care of one veil of ignorance at a time.  Apparently, you are not capable of understanding what I am teaching you.

As soon as someone tells you something, you should reject it.  If they have no absolutely irrefutable, physical, OBVIOUS evidence to back up any statement, then they are just repeating religious slogans.

You never did that, because if you had, you would not believe in religious HEMG.

DNA only shows genetic losses in all multi cellular creatures.
There is no NET positive evolution in which creatures gain in complexity nor intelligence.

The way mutations work does not allow for any form of evolution.

Listen to this video again, and tell me how evolution is possible, from the evidence, not from religious slogans?

The data from this video is taught in every school on genetics.  It is clear as can be that negative mutations are far more plausible than any other type.
That  a huge majority of any changes to existing DNA will have negative results. The data is about 5000 to 1 for negative results.

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Reply #28 - Oct 31st, 2011 at 2:31pm
 
How do you explain genetic commonalities? For instance,  human beings have approximately 96% of genes in common with chimpanzees, about 90% of genes in common with cats (http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/11/1675.full), 80% with cows (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/324/5926/522), 75% with mice (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000112), and so on.  This does not prove that we evolved from chimpanzees or cats, though, only that we shared a common ancestor in the past.

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Reply #29 - Oct 31st, 2011 at 4:41pm
 
bevolve wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 2:31pm:
How do you explain genetic commonalities? For instance,  human beings have approximately 96% of genes in common with chimpanzees, about 90% of genes in common with cats (http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/11/1675.full), 80% with cows (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/324/5926/522), 75% with mice (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000112), and so on.  This does not prove that we evolved from chimpanzees or cats, though, only that we shared a common ancestor in the past.



You are asking good questions.  I have all the answers for you on this.

This is obvious. There are only 20 or so possible amino acids. There is only very few ways to assemble the minerals and proteins  to make strong bones with calcium etc.

There is only one way to produce many mammal tissues.

IF you just go and look at the definition of mammals and see what they have in common. It is obvious.

In other words having common genes that do similar functions would be normal on creatures that have absolutely no genetic link.

It is faith and belief in this idea that the wishers of this religious faith will look for anything that even slightly implies their faith. This is one of those along with the whole "tree of life" they concocted from this faith.

There is no evidence that cats and humans have a common ancestor.

But you, obviously, did not read my post about the Chimpanzee.  There is overwhelming evidence that Chimps and Humans have a common ancestor.  That ancestor is a superior human, based on the fact that
1/ Chimps are a much younger species than humans.
2/ DNA only shows genetic degradation.
3/ Where chimps are found, is also where humans migrated to.
It is obvious that some tribe got caught up in mutagens, most likely from radioactive minerals in the environment.

The macaque monkey in Japan soaks in hot springs that most likely at one time were extremely toxic with radiation.  Go look at the DNA of that species realizing what I just taught you. Lots of fusions, lots of mutations.

The gene losses in the chimp are much greater in the brain and scull area, in the spine, and other areas.  They maintain the muscle strength that we lost.

If you look at the chimp skull you can see the depression of lost scull and in the DNA you can see the lost HAR-1 genes quickly.
The jaw bone is a bit stronger than ours.

Chimps are excellent evidence of genetic degradation.  They survived some serious mutations.  goto The thread here "This is supposed to be a pro evolution video". Read it. I posted the chromosome charts of primates and some more information  there.

The mutation that caused the Chromosome number 2 in humans that is shown to be two separate chromosomes in chimps is also a genetic defect. That shows well that humans degraded from the predecessor. It is just one of at least 5000 mutations in the human species we have now. There are about 16,000 to 20,000 mutations in the Chimps.

These fools even think that because there is a tiny gene in fish that resembles human DNA,  that we must have evolved from fish.

How far do you take this faith based religious thing?

I have studied this for over 43 years and seen many of the iterations and refinements of the inferences, implications and projection of belief, and the avoidance of obvious evidence.

It is a sad thing that is based on a need for things to have some hope for the future that is magical.  Magical thinking is a human defect.  The belief in "luck" is one of those ignorant beliefs.  The idea that when someone dies of cancer that "god" caused it is relative, because humans were set free on this planet, and were given instructions on how to live to avoid genetic degradation and mutatagens that cause cancer, but they think that is the myth.  That is funny in a sad serious way.

All people wish for this magical positive outcome for humanity. But the reality is humans do so many things to create mutagens that are not only destroying humans and the planet, but other species as well.

The newest god is science, like it is going to save humanity.  That is really sad.  It is the blind leading the blind, into a pit of suffering and more ignorance.

Once the genes are screwed up, they do not magically fix themselves by some magical evolution process.  That is idiotic.

Humans do not have the capacity to fix this problem, because their religious faith based nonsense keeps them from seeing the obvious.

The truth is not for wimps, but for those who want to do something worth while for humanity that is based on reality.

If you want to help humanity then you would dedicate your life to helping humanity to stop destroying their own species.

We know the causes of nearly all the mutations, yet we think they are good for us, by some magical human emotional mental garbage that the ignorant humans want to believe.  That mutagens will fix us? That mutagens (micro evolution) will save us. It is an idiotic human faith based religion.

You can see in the news, all the people struggling to fix the problems of humanity, but all they do when they try fixes is to make it worse, repeat the same nonsense that has been tried and failed many times,  because humans living in denial of the obvious and humans are the problem.

When I see people, most seem to be sick, all afflicted with suffering and ignorance, wanting for some magical cure.

The cure is to stop falling for human faith based nonsense and look at the reality of the evidence we have.

It is obvious what is going on.

Only the Genetic Engineer that put us here can fix this.

   



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