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Another Evolutionists want to debate (Read 4670 times)
GoodScienceForYou
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Another Evolutionists want to debate
Jul 9th, 2012 at 10:43pm
 
[He quoted me in brackets]
Date:
07/09/12
Message:
[I know the whole of the Theory of Evolution, and it has been adulterated to fit with some religious BS.]

If you KNOW the theory, WHY DO YOU MISREPRESENT it as opposed to addressing issues? Why use pejorative language as opposed to presenting your case? Since, if you actually know about evolution and you are addressing someone who knows it as well and accepts it as true, then it is up to you to present what is actually wrong. However, misrepresentations simply make you look like an idiot. Making comments such as Evodelusionism does not help your case...

[The purity of it was to see if indeed we came from an evolving positive process. And DNA destroys that completely.]

How actually? You must STATE what is wrong not just make claims.

[For over 130 years this idea has been held up by a thread of faith and hope and not much evidence, but people sure like to believe in myths.]

What are you calling faith and hope? Since, I consider the explanation makes the evidence of fossils, genetic linkages between species, mutations, environment, geology as it relates to understanding past environments, as well as ongoing changes that are observed rather complete without contradiction...

[Now after we see that 1/ MUTATIONS are the only measure of change to the genome. 2/ Mutations are deleterious by their very nature.]

Actually, there are mutations that occur all the time - MOST are benign, since, they cause no visible change, VERY few can be considered good, and some are destructive. So, your depiction of mutation being inherently deleterious as a categorical claim is FALSE. DO NOT MISREPRESENT THE STATE OF THINGS. Since, this amounts to LYING. I even gave you a link to a guy which represents a GOOD mutation and he is NOT the only one... The only think that I demand of anyone is to tell the truth... If you can't AT LEAST do that, there is NO point of a conversation of ANY SORT.

[This video is based on the US government medical library on genetics as we know it today. Tell me how is it possible for any net positive evolution to take place when mutations only destroy existing DNA coding?]

It wouldn't be if that there actually the case, WHICH IT IS NOT. There are a number of good mutations that occur as well as bad ones...as well as neutral ones at least at this point in time...

---

[The fossils are worthless by themselves. They do not show any direction ,but they fit perfectly when you have absolute evidence in DNA.]

The fossils show a progression of change, which is what evolution explains...the nature of change and why... The DNA makes the picture even clearly with regard to the linkages of the changes from one group to another...

[Replacement or casting imprint fossil dating is not science.
The age of the dirt has nothing to do with the age of the fossil. It is a really stupid assumption, based on nothing but wishful thinking.]

Apparently, you don't understand the science related to radioactive dating. Misrepresentations are effectively lies. Do not misrepresent the science.

[DNA similarity follows exactly with genetic degradation in all creatures.]

There is NO degradation to be claimed unless you can posit an ideal form. If you are positing an ideal form, what is the basis of this claim. Since, evolution does NOT speak to ANY ideal form.

[The chimp and human similarity clearly indicates genetic degradation because chimps are nearly extinct. They have lost most of their brain capacity and have short relatively miserable lives. All the 'great primates" are going extinct, which follows the direction of "evolution" towards extinction only.]

Chimps are going extinct due to the fact that WE (humans) are destroying that habitat and hunting them into extinction. It has NOTHING to do with any suppose degradation. Please actually study the plight of chimps... Your misrepresentations of the state of things is absolutely horrible.

---

[Logically, the only mutations that cause us to be diminished are not somatic.

Women are born with all their eggs preformed and ready to go, to help stop genetic degradation. This was built in by design, obviously. There is no other reason for it.]

Genetic changes can occur AT fertilization via a number of factors such as viruses, bacteria, and other errors (from various sources) that could occur from a poorly developed egg to a poorly developed sperm. Granted such changes are rare, however, they do occur. So the claim of any somatic cell being free form change misses the inherit potential for change during fertilization.

[Mutations are mostly from diseases we cause that promotes the majority of our degradation. When a sperm cell or egg is attacked at the time of reproduction then and only then can the mutation attack the fetus and become a permanent mutation.]

It is a misrepresentation to present it as an attack. Since, chemical interactions which could cause mutations would not be an attack but a disruption. I object to the language, since, the depiction suggests there is a mind behind the notion as opposed to just being processes at work. I grant that there are processes at work that are generally destruction with regard to foreign chemical agents. However, I have no real disagreement about the implications presented.

[The most common would be a virus attacking at the germ level. Next would be radiation attacking the fetus. Then comes toxic chemicals as the third most probable.]

Other than the use of the word attacking...no dispute over the depiction...

[When there are minor mutations the infant can live, but will pass on these 3 deleterious mutations per generation according to accredited scientific medical DNA studies. Because of the rapid increase in deleterious mutations we have an average of 900 deleterious mutations per human, causing the need for the medical industry and causing 10's of thousands of diseases.]

The claim of deleterious is problematic. Since, I grant that there are a variety of changes, however, the question as to whether the changes are in fact deleterious is questionable. However, in principle, I do find it hazardous to allow mutagenic agents to be present in our environment, since, there are good changes that they WILL BE problematic...

[You see in order to have permanent mutations they must be done a the germ level. This is why protecting the family and cleanliness, no diseases and sex with only one partner, at conception is the only way to go to stop this genetic suicide. Keeping yourself away from radiation and one's mate is also important.]

Being free from disease and reducing the spread of disease - I have no issue. Oddly enough, a variety of children from a variety of sex partners is actually better for the diversity of genes, however, socially we really don't seem to be able to deal with such well. It should also be noted that we have been a rather promiscuous species IF various studies considering thingy length have ANY validity. I haven't checked the genetic studies which should also reveal whether we have been predominately monogamous or not... I don't think that we have been as a species. Comments in literature such as "Momma's baby, Daddy's maybe" - suggest a lot of about the state of things...

[It is all about the children of the future. A rise to 135% in childhood cancer is an absolute indication of genetic degradation.]

I wouldn't call it genetic degradation, I will claim that there are a lot of pollutants in the environment. Which may well have caused underlying permanent damage in many. So, I have no disagreement in the idea that we need to do MUCH MORE to protect ourselves from factors that create genetic damage, especially things that can be interfere or affect reproduction...

---

It would seem that your real issue: We are allowing the potential for our destruction by permitting agents in our environment which have the potential to cause genetic damage to our offspring. We do not know all of the potential changes, however, we do know that there is a potential for great harm and if we allow this potential to go unchecked it has the potential to escalate in ways that we do not understand nor do we have the technology to address the potential issues.

If this last paragraph represents what you are really against, we have no disagreement. Since, regardless of how it is labelled...it is clear that random change beyond the normal changes of genetic variation are intrinsically dangerous, since, the rate of change has the potential to cause incompatibilities to outright sterility and yield offspring which are impaired due to the changes which occurred in the adults to effectively "speciate" them (the adults) from one another...
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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #1 - Jul 9th, 2012 at 11:07pm
 
"If you KNOW the theory, WHY DO YOU MISREPRESENT it as opposed to addressing issues? Why use pejorative language as opposed to presenting your case? Since, if you actually know about evolution and you are addressing someone who knows it as well and accepts it as true, then it is up to you to present what is actually wrong. However, misrepresentations simply make you look like an idiot. Making comments such as Evodelusionism does not help your case..."


When people say this they are trained to say this when confronted by others who observe, study and see the folly of this faith based ideology.

The only part of your "theory" is the original part that I find religious in nature and has no evidence to back it.

Evolution: "that theory which sees in the history of all things organic and inorganic a development from simplicity to complexity, a gradual advance from a simple or rudimentary condition to one that is more complex and of a higher character." Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language.

When people are indoctrinated into this religion they are indoctrinated with facts that are totally irrelevant to this definition. By implication, inference, and repitition this idea of evolutionary advancement in complexity is brainwashed into the students.

It is a horrible thing to do to children.  It helps to destroy any possibility of stopping the madness of our genetic self destruction.

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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #2 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 2:30am
 
"What are you calling faith and hope? Since, I consider the explanation makes the evidence of fossils, genetic linkages between species, mutations, environment, geology as it relates to understanding past environments, as well as ongoing changes that are observed rather complete without contradiction... ""

Faith and hope is when someone is indoctrinated by TV, teachers, parents, peers, preachers, into something that is not true, but everybody sure hopes it is.

Evolution is this idea that by some magical process existing genetic structures can be changed by mutations and improve, become better, smarter, more complex.

There is absolutely no evidence of this on this planet. I have already discussed every piece of, evidence and showed the counter evidence and the ambiguity and the faith projected on the evidence with and to at least 100 people of the PhD level. Some have been on here and got really angry insulting and just left. 

Nobody want to believe they have been duped by the people they trust. This is the problem and the cause of this crap being perpetuated by believers.



I have studied this for over 44 going on 45 years.
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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #3 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 2:48am
 
GoodScienceForYou [Now after we see that 1/ MUTATIONS are the only measure of change to the genome. 2/ Mutations are deleterious by their very nature.]

Mycontext Said:
"Actually, there are mutations that occur all the time - MOST are benign, since, they cause no visible change"

There are very few mutations that occur in the reproductive process (thank God) , and only when the germ level is attacked by mutagens.
"

GoodScienceForYou:
The Evotards all think that normal mixing of existing genes is some form of "mutation".  That is by faith and belief only.  And I have asked thousands of them to show me the evidence that these are indeed mutations that this coding has never appeared in the genetic lineage of the offspring.
They can't do that, because they don't do that. They just live off hope and faith and project this magical nonsense on normal reproduction.

Mixing of existing living DNA of parents is NOT mutations.  That is a lie.

MyContext Said:
", VERY few can be considered good, and some are destructive. So, your depiction of mutation being inherently deleterious as a categorical claim is FALSE. DO NOT MISREPRESENT THE STATE OF THINGS. Since, this amounts to LYING. I even gave you a link to a guy which represents a GOOD mutation and he is NOT the only one... The only think that I demand of anyone is to tell the truth... If you can't AT LEAST do that, there is NO point of a conversation of ANY SORT."

GoodScienceForYou:
I don't ever tell lies, I just tell it like it really is based upon the evidence.  You fools think that the things that make humans unique are continual new mutations.  Most of those mutations have already been done by our ancestors who also screwed up and produced mutagens during reproduction.

According to medical science there are from 1.6 to 3 deleterious mutations passed into the population in each generation. This is based on current rates of mutations.

They also state that there are approximately 900 deleterious mutations in EACH human.  Based on a recent study. 

There is no positive only mutation ever found in humans that can be verified as a mutation by comparing DNA among the entire population and all the DNA we have on our 5000 year old and older DNA specimens we have tested.

Now, I want you to produce any 100% positive mutation that has the following criteria based on the foundation of this idea of simple life evolving into complex.
There are zero positive mutations ever found in the human genome. I have had this discussion with thousands of people including many PhD's of genetics and they cannot show me one totally positive mutation. Now it is your turn.

Positive mutation is that it must increase complexity NOT be associated with any disease and any of the following: 1/ add new genes with new functions 2/ increase health and fitness to survive 3/ increase intelligence 4/ not be part of normal immune responses to pathogens.
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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #4 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 3:25am
 
GoodScienceForYou: [The fossils are worthless by themselves. They do not show any direction ,but they fit perfectly when you have absolute evidence in DNA.]

MyContext said:
"The fossils show a progression of change, which is what evolution explains...the nature of change and why... The DNA makes the picture even clearly with regard to the linkages of the changes from one group to another..."

GoodScienceForYou: Since there are only deleterious mutations found in all complex creatures on their path of "evolution" I would say without a doubt that is absolutely irrefutable physical evidence that ALL other evidence must fit with for a complete picture of what is real.  And all the other evidence fits perfectly with that.

When you remove the magical dating system from science, and go with what is actually seen it become clear.  Fossil dating of the ground around a fossil is utter HEMG.

You don't seem to know anything about  how fossils are dated you can see from these two videos what this process entails. 





GoodScienceForYou
[Replacement or casting imprint fossil dating is not science.
The age of the dirt has nothing to do with the age of the fossil. It is a really stupid assumption, based on nothing but wishful thinking.]
MyContext Said:
"Apparently, you don't understand the science related to radioactive dating. Misrepresentations are effectively lies. Do not misrepresent the science."


GoodScienceForYou:  I just presented you with exactly how fossils are dated and you can see that if you were to die today and your bones were to fossilize in 5000 years, they would dig you up and date your fossil at the assumed age of the dirt. This is why we have degraded humans who are thought to be our predecessors, when they are tribes that were separated and were harmed with some serious mutagens from the environment. And they are all extinct as would be predicted by the result of genetic degradation. There is no trail of them living to "evolve" as the Evotards believe.

We have a modern ""hominid" found in Australia today. It is less than 100 years old since its tribe went extinct.
...

...

GoodScienceForYou: agian [DNA similarity follows exactly with genetic degradation in all creatures.]

MyContext Said: ""There is NO degradation to be claimed unless you can posit an ideal form. If you are positing an ideal form, what is the basis of this claim. Since, evolution does NOT speak to ANY ideal form."

GoodScienceForYou:  I can't believe you think that is a question, but I am going to humor you with a response that comes directly from your faith of the Theory of Evolution.

I don't posit an ideal form, just a better more healthy and better fit to survive than now, with stronger bones, stronger and more teeth, more hair, more flexibility, less diseases, larger skull.
------------------------------------------------------
GoodScienceForYou again:
[The chimp and human similarity clearly indicates genetic degradation because chimps are nearly extinct. They have lost most of their brain capacity and have short relatively miserable lives. All the 'great primates" are going extinct, which follows the direction of "evolution" towards extinction only.]

MyContext said: "Chimps are going extinct due to the fact that WE (humans) are destroying that habitat and hunting them into extinction. It has NOTHING to do with any suppose degradation. Please actually study the plight of chimps... Your misrepresentations of the state of things is absolutely horrible."

GoodScienceForYou:  Like I said Chimps can no longer adapt and cope with this new environment and they are very degraded genetically as can be seen in their DNA.

Do you know that in the HAR-1 Gene they have 18 deleterious mutations that render them stupid.  According to estimates they have about 160,000 deleterious mutations that make them animals and going extinct.
Do you know that they have all the same diseases as humans and more, and these diseases show up at much younger ages.
Do you know that our closest cousin only lives for about 30 years in the wild and approx 50 years in captivity with constant medical attention.

If as is believed humans and chimps came from the same exact genetic lineage, then both chimps and humans are excellent examples of genetic degradation.

Humans degraded in one way and chimps in another. All creatures are heading only for extinction.

Do you know there are 47,000 creatures on the endangered species list, including all of our cousin great primates, and 1 in 4 mammals? 

Not only are humans destroying their species, they are destroying most of the life on earth from mutagens and what they don't kill, they just destroy by toxic chemicals, destroying habitat, or radiation from toxic dumps.

There is no such thing as a positive mutation.  What we have in DNA is it and we are not getting any more unless the designer and builder of our species comes and fixes this.





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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #5 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 4:05am
 
MyContext said:  ""Being free from disease and reducing the spread of disease - I have no issue. Oddly enough, a variety of children from a variety of sex partners is actually better for the diversity of genes, however, socially we really don't seem to be able to deal with such well."

GoodScienceForYou:  I can tell you from a purely scientific background study of humans and psychology, a child from a divorced family has multiple psychological problems to over come. This is well known.  Most people take the trauma of dysfunctional families and divorce to the grave with them.  It has a profound negative effect on their lives.

And a woman having sex with several guys at the time she is in her fertile years can be disastrous for any fetus she may conceive.
This is because the female reproductive area is designed and made with special flora and low pH to fight off diseases and protect the fetus.  When that flora is messed up by multiple sex partners all with different virus and bacteria on their "thingy" it can cause and does cause mutations.

This is what some of the Hox mutations look like.



MyContext Said:
It should also be noted that we have been a rather promiscuous species IF various studies considering thingy length have ANY validity. I haven't checked the genetic studies which should also reveal whether we have been predominately monogamous or not... I don't think that we have been as a species. Comments in literature such as "Momma's baby, Daddy's maybe" - suggest a lot of about the state of things..."


GoodScienceForYou:
[It is all about the children of the future. A rise to 135% in childhood cancer is an absolute indication of genetic degradation.]

MyContext Said:
I wouldn't call it genetic degradation, I will claim that there are a lot of pollutants in the environment. Which may well have caused underlying permanent damage in many. So, I have no disagreement in the idea that we need to do MUCH MORE to protect ourselves from factors that create genetic damage, especially things that can be interfere or affect reproduction...

GoodScienceForYou:  You don't understand the nature of Cancer obviously.  I suggest that you study all that we are learning every day. 
Cancer is just another mutation, but it is a special variety.  Sometimes virus can enter a cell, cause cancer and then the immune system which is messed up from mutations cannot recognize the cancer cell and it allows the cancer to grow.

Anything that can cause cancer can also cause a mutation that does not become malignant but just reproduces in the persons offspring.

Here is how a healthy immune system responds to a cancer cell.


We know that cancer cells are a normally occurring phenomenon.  Our immune system was designed to remove them.  What allows it to live and grow is a screwed up immune system in the humans who are prone to cancer.

We know that cancer is caused by genetic defects because there are 242853 articles alone on "cancer genetics" on pub med.
Cancer is one of the most studied genetic diseases we have, and it is well known that it is caused by genetic issues.

So, how is it possible that a rise to 135% in 25 years of CHILDHOOD INVASIVE CANCER is not absolute evidence of genetic degradation. Ages 0 to 14 years is the age of this group.  Do you think that these parents are feeding their kids plutonium?  This is normal american people who are doing many things wrong genetically and sexually to cause these mutations. 

There are over 30 STD's and some of them are not detectable for years.

This is why morality is for the sake of children, not about you or your sex organs.
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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #6 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 4:13am
 
MyContext said: "It would seem that your real issue: We are allowing the potential for our destruction by permitting agents in our environment which have the potential to cause genetic damage to our offspring. We do not know all of the potential changes, however, we do know that there is a potential for great harm and if we allow this potential to go unchecked it has the potential to escalate in ways that we do not understand nor do we have the technology to address the potential issues.

If this last paragraph represents what you are really against, we have no disagreement. Since, regardless of how it is labelled...it is clear that random change beyond the normal changes of genetic variation are intrinsically dangerous, since, the rate of change has the potential to cause incompatibilities to outright sterility and yield offspring which are impaired due to the changes which occurred in the adults to effectively "speciate" them (the adults) from one another..."

GoodScienceForYou said:
Why do you put "..." at the end of your statements?   That is only used in places where you are going to continue the sentence on another post.  Like on youtube where you have 500 characters only.

Anyway,  there is no such thing as random magical mutations. We know the causes of mutations. We know how to stop them.  We know the causes of the spread of horrible diseases. We know the cause of mutant virus.  We know all this, yet we still are led around by our sexual compulsions, eating compulsions, and finding new ways to "validate them".   

Political correctness along with profits for selling to these eating, comfort,  and sex compulsions is a disease maker. 

Next we support the greedy people who put this crap of Evodelusionism in the schools, because it makes money for them and supports the political agenda of the people who own the media, and the politicians. 

If this crap was not a money maker and supports the rich and greedy, I can guarantee you it would never be taught in any school.

Humans basically are looking for magical solutions to human problems. That is why this crap of magical mutations and some magical possibility for improvements is hoped for with faith and belief.  But is is just a stupid human myth.
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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #7 - Jul 22nd, 2012 at 10:10am
 
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Re: Another Evolutionists want to debate
Reply #8 - Jul 27th, 2012 at 1:30am
 
Here is your educations time on what is really going on. This knowledge will make you a better person worker/ professional. Evodelusionism destroys your ability to recognize what is happening. Mutations to the core structure DNA in COMPLEX living creatures are CAUSED events. In humans they are mostly repaired or destroyed by the immune system then replaced with new correct cells, or they turn into cancer when the immune system is screwed up by core structures with DNA mutations.


Mutations to the core structural DNA coding of humans cause nothing but diseases and destroy fitness. They have shown by DNA study to have no positive effects whatsoever. There are over 600,000 articles on "genetic disease" alone caused by these mutations. All mutations to the core or genetic foundation structures of humans are bad.

The immune system works similar to the bacteria system of recognizing and adapting the cells to work with different carbon based foods. This is done by internal programming of the bacteria to adapt. It is obvious because if you take the same strain of bacteria and submit it to the same foods it will adapt to use that food in a very short period of time, as little as 6 generations. This is obviously programmed design. Bacteria must live or all of life on earth is gone as we know it.

If the need to digest this "new "food in bacteria is no longer needed then it atrophies and becomes a non functioning gene. There is no net evolution that would cause the need for new cells. Without new cells with new functions bacteria shows no signs of evolution all it does is the change in diet mutation that is purposeful and obviously programmed. 'Similar to Galapagos finches get longer beaks then shorter beaks as the conditions change. Theres no evolution towards complexity.

The religious believer in evolution is looking for "signs"from the "god" of evolution so they see things that are not real and believe in them. They do not have any sort of objective awareness to what is actually taking place because of this emotional need to have evolution be real. There is no simple towards complex evolution ever seen on this planet.

We see this phenomenon in all the evolution believers. They see evolution in bacteria when bacteria never evolves into anything else. It always has been single celled. We have found in amber 40,000,000 bacteria that DNA shows is the same as modern bacteria. It is far older than humans.

In humans and all complex living creatures there is only a gradual loss of fitness that leads to extinction. You would think that by now humans would be able to understand this from the hundreds of thousands of pieces of DNA data we have. But this BS of evolution is still taught to be real even after all this data destroys that idea completely.
Every human according to articles on pubmed has average 877 deleterious mutations that cause them to be sick and need the medical industry.

There are over 7000 known "rare"genetic diseases. 1 in 10 people have them.
30% of humans have cancer average, 20% have diabetes. 12% have heard disease. There is a rash of new autoimmune diseases that were unheard of in prior generations. I have had friends who's doctors told her she was a mental case because she had an unheard of autoimmune disease, chronic fatigue syndrome. That she was "just depressed". New diseases appear at a very rapid rate from genetic degradation.

This ideology of evolution by magical processes and mystical causes things become more complex has no physical evidence. The opposite is what we see in the most studied creatures on the planet. The path of evolution in complex creatures is ONLY towards extinction. We have no other evidence of anything else. The truth that we are destroying our species is not something people, mother's, father's, nor a child wants to believe. Magical ideas are far more pleasant than the truth.

In the human genetic coding is this ability of the immune system to create the cells necessary to recognize pathogens. These mutations come and go as needed for the environment, similar to what bacteria does to learn to digest new foods. The foundation of this intricate set of absolutely obviously programmed instructions is to keep humans alive.
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