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Randomness (Read 51973 times)
GoodScienceForYou
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Re: Randomness
Reply #120 - Dec 16th, 2009 at 3:27am
 
You didn't answer my question of LaTex code. Maybe you know of a better alternative? I really don't know how to present my ideas on information without it.

Use the menu and present it with jpegs of your information if you need to.  You can also do video presentations upload them to youtube and post them here.

I have not tried to use html on here, but I think you can.
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metha
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Re: Randomness
Reply #121 - Dec 16th, 2009 at 4:04am
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Dec 16th, 2009 at 3:25am:
You assume that I could not predict it.
 

You can convince me if we do a test on this. I can give you a sequence of numbers (with structure), and you predict the next number.

Quote:
Using my really crude program I was able to predict numbers consistently with a degree of accuracy that showed that random does not exist at any level.


Then you can demonstrate this for all to see.


Quote:
It is a perception in the human mind to describe things not understood. It is the basis of many religious beliefs that are still in science today.

The universe operates on structures based on all the laws of science. Not just Newtons laws of physics. 


You state that I am wrong about the electrons, but you need to demonstrate how it is wrong and come up with an explanation for the insanely improbable fact that we can predict the probabilities, and WHY the factors that influences the outcome doesn't influence the outcome if you position the electron up or down. You can not just say that it is wrong, you have to tell me why.

About LaTex. Thanks a lot for your answer. I do not have a youtube account nor video software, and HTML will not be enough. Maybe i can make pictures, or else I will have to use LaTex. Will be harder to read, but possible.
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GoodScienceForYou
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Re: Randomness
Reply #122 - Dec 16th, 2009 at 1:16pm
 
metha wrote on Dec 16th, 2009 at 4:04am:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Dec 16th, 2009 at 3:25am:
You assume that I could not predict it.
 

You can convince me if we do a test on this. I can give you a sequence of numbers (with structure), and you predict the next number.

Quote:
Using my really crude program I was able to predict numbers consistently with a degree of accuracy that showed that random does not exist at any level.


Then you can demonstrate this for all to see.


Quote:
It is a perception in the human mind to describe things not understood. It is the basis of many religious beliefs that are still in science today.

The universe operates on structures based on all the laws of science. Not just Newtons laws of physics. 


You state that I am wrong about the electrons, but you need to demonstrate how it is wrong and come up with an explanation for the insanely improbable fact that we can predict the probabilities, and WHY the factors that influences the outcome doesn't influence the outcome if you position the electron up or down. You can not just say that it is wrong, you have to tell me why.

About LaTex. Thanks a lot for your answer. I do not have a youtube account nor video software, and HTML will not be enough. Maybe i can make pictures, or else I will have to use LaTex. Will be harder to read, but possible.



When you are working at the level of electrons, you are not in the same level of things that can be tested for random. Just like pseudo random ping pong balls that will produce lottery numbers.  Those can be predicted if you have enough data to do it.

Just as when you destroy uranium in an atomic blast.  Once is is down below the level of the most basic element of hydrogen (one electron, one proton), you are in a different science that is outside of the elements.

This is on the level of beyond the physical.  Electrons are all the same, and are not diverse.

When talking about what is in the physical world and these electrons are part of the structure of the chemicals there is no random.

Once you destroy the structures, there is no structure in physics it is on a different level of subatomic.  It is like looking at a single brick and saying that is all there is to the building.

In the world that we live in with all of these structures random does not exist. Even in a computer program you have to seed the program to get a "pseudo random" number.

We don't even know for sure if electrons only pass in wire or if they have the ability to pass on the charges in a wave from one electron to the next.  If we can work on that principle, I propose it would change the speed at which computers can run.

You issue is that what you are doing is a pseudo random or apparent random, not an absolute random.  In all cases it is simply taking structures and shaking them around and let them bump into each other.

But if you slow it down and actually look at all the "bumping" going on it is completely following the law of cause and effect.

When you are dealing with complex cell structures and DNA, you cannot just simply scramble the box and not have the creatures die.  Random in DNA is death.

Having a bunch of ping pong balls with numbers on them in an air chamber has no relationship to genetics.  Trying to force false beliefs on DNA is a mental illness caused by improper scientific training.
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metha
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Re: Randomness
Reply #123 - Dec 16th, 2009 at 1:43pm
 
I feel that you do not understand what I am trying to say, GoodScienceForYou, and espcially the difference between randomness and seemingly randomness. I say the following:

1) The randomness in electrons are real. This can be shown directly by measuring the spin of an electron after it was prepared. An electron seems to have exactly 2 states, and nothing in between (which would be more logical in classical physics). No outer factors can influence the electrons when we prepare them, because strong magnetic fields are used to prepare an electron. Then we measure if it emits a quantum or if it doesn't. We can always predict the probability, and to such accuracy that outer factors can be ruled out and such that it is virtually impossible that the electron-state isn't random. It really is, I have seen it with my own eyes, and the results are simply goosebumpsical.

2) The example you provide with ping pong balls is seemingly random. With that I mean that we can in principle predict the balls, but the factors influencing the outcome are too complicated to really make a prediction. So hence it seems random to us, since we cannot predict the outcomes. This is different from the electron example, and this is deterministic, classical and Newtonian. A random generator in a computer is OF COURSE not really random. Of ocurse it is pseudorandom. Of course computer programs need a seed, nothing would make sense without one. But if you do not know the seed, it is very, very, very difficult (even impossible) for you to predict the next number. So hence it SEEMS random, and you using your credit card actually relies on this!

3) You do not believe in free will?

Want to test it? I can give you a number sequence with a structure and then you predict the next number using your program. I am not saing I do not believe you, I just say that I am very interested.
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GoodScienceForYou
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Re: Randomness
Reply #124 - Dec 17th, 2009 at 12:10am
 
metha wrote on Dec 16th, 2009 at 1:43pm:
I feel that you do not understand what I am trying to say, GoodScienceForYou, and espcially the difference between randomness and seemingly randomness. I say the following:

1) The randomness in electrons are real. This can be shown directly by measuring the spin of an electron after it was prepared. An electron seems to have exactly 2 states, and nothing in between (which would be more logical in classical physics). No outer factors can influence the electrons when we prepare them, because strong magnetic fields are used to prepare an electron. Then we measure if it emits a quantum or if it doesn't. We can always predict the probability, and to such accuracy that outer factors can be ruled out and such that it is virtually impossible that the electron-state isn't random. It really is, I have seen it with my own eyes, and the results are simply goosebumpsical.

2) The example you provide with ping pong balls is seemingly random. With that I mean that we can in principle predict the balls, but the factors influencing the outcome are too complicated to really make a prediction. So hence it seems random to us, since we cannot predict the outcomes. This is different from the electron example, and this is deterministic, classical and Newtonian. A random generator in a computer is OF COURSE not really random. Of ocurse it is pseudorandom. Of course computer programs need a seed, nothing would make sense without one. But if you do not know the seed, it is very, very, very difficult (even impossible) for you to predict the next number. So hence it SEEMS random, and you using your credit card actually relies on this!

3) You do not believe in free will?

Want to test it? I can give you a number sequence with a structure and then you predict the next number using your program. I am not saing I do not believe you, I just say that I am very interested.


There is free will, but most people do not use it. They are controlled by fear. 
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metha
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Re: Randomness
Reply #125 - Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:30am
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 12:10am:
There is free will, but most people do not use it. They are controlled by fear. 


But then there is such a thing as true randomness.
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Re: Randomness
Reply #126 - Dec 19th, 2009 at 11:41pm
 
metha wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:30am:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 12:10am:
There is free will, but most people do not use it. They are controlled by fear. 


But then there is such a thing as true randomness.


How would you go about proving that one?  I am not talking about abstract mathematics.  I am talking about in the real physical world of matter, interactions, and reactions.
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Re: Randomness
Reply #127 - Jan 10th, 2010 at 12:50am
 
Real science and real scientists should never make assumptions about anything. It is not science, but projection of belief.

Random is not a proven or even tested by the scientific methodology as even a scientific principle in the physical world of mass, momentum,and interactions between organic life.

There is no science without forming an experiment to show your hypothesis. So far no scientist has ever been able to show random in the physical world (no experiments show this).

In real science there is only energy, mass, in motion and the reactions on these actions. That can never be random, by the laws of physics: "For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

There can NEVER be random events in the physical world, because once energy is expressed it can only follow the laws of physics or genetics, as it transfers and propagates energy and genetic (DNA) interactions into the world.

The only possible use of the term random is in pure mathematics, and in electronics where you only have one "thing" electrons and electron clouds (all the same "particle" with noting else) but this does not equate to random in the physical world.

If random were true, then evolution is not true, because it is impossible by the laws of physics to produce any form of evolution that could ever be random. It would have to be only a "genetic" chain reaction to events and that is never random.

There is only genetics, and genetics is not random but a result of information behind the DNA, traits passed into the DNA, and that is all. If you were to calculate the permutations of the probability of, for instance 3.2billion DNA base pairs and their "expression" as they form the foundation for human cells it could not happen in hundreds of trillions of years by "random" events.

This is mathematically proven facts. As we say the way the cards are dealt are they way they happened, but each event only happened one way and only one way, based only on what has already transpired. What is stated here cannot be falsified, therefore it remains as well tested and known scientific principles. We need to remove any ambiguous assumptions from genetic science.
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Re: Randomness
Reply #128 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:03pm
 
metha wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:30am:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Dec 17th, 2009 at 12:10am:
There is free will, but most people do not use it. They are controlled by fear. 


But then there is such a thing as true randomness.


True randomness could never be used in a mathematical equation. The term mathematics is a precise set of rules that are not random.

There exists no random in the universe.
The reason why random has disclaimers on it is because pure random is not existent.
It is only cause and effect so fast that you think it is random, because you feeble mind cannot comprehend even 100 events taking place, much less trillions of scientific events taking place in a split second.  Random is a damn excuse for human stupidity.
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Re: Randomness
Reply #129 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:05pm
 
There exists no random in the universe.
The reason why random has disclaimers on it (like "apparent random")  is because pure random is not existent.
It is only cause and effect so fast that you think it is random, because you feeble mind cannot comprehend even 100 events taking place, much less trillions of scientific events taking place in a split second.  Random is a damn excuse for human stupidity.
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Re: Randomness
Reply #130 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:13pm
 
Quote:
This thread is about "randomness". It is meant to be a place to establish some consistent terminology.

So a question for GoodScienceForYou: How do you describe a natural process that produces different results? And how do you characterize the results of that process? Take snowflakes for instance. One could examine millions of snowflakes and most likely not find any two that are identical. This is because Ice crystal formation is sensitive to small scale condition variances. And because the snowflakes fall through different humidity and temperature conditions. The laws of physics combined with the complexity of the system produces a phenomenon called 'chaos'. That is unpredictability in complex systems. From the wiki:
Quote:
Chaos theory is an area of inquiry in mathematics, physics, and philosophy which studies the behavior of certain dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. This sensitivity is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future dynamics are fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.


You see, the system involves NO randomness, just how you like it. Which I agree with. But how do you characterize all of the variation in the snowflakes?


Your thinking is twisted.  Because you do not have the capacity to understand something, does not give you the right to manipulate the meaning of what is real.

In the future predictability of all things in the physical world will be easily done, by computers capable of that many calculations at one instant.

If you were to do a chart on the computing power we have now and what was in the past, you can easily see the direction computer science is taking us.

It will eventually destroy all the bovine garbage in science, such as mystical magical evolutionary processes that only exist in the minds of the believers.
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metha
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Re: Randomness
Reply #131 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 4:15am
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:03pm:
True randomness could never be used in a mathematical equation.


Of course it could. probability distributions are very important in mathematics.

Quote:
The term mathematics is a precise set of rules that are not random.


OF COURSE the mathematics itself is not random. OF COURSE that is not the issue here. The point is that mathematics, of course not random in itself after defined, DEALS with randomness and calculates with random events.

There exists no random in the universe.
The reason why random has disclaimers on it is because pure random is not existent.
It is only cause and effect so fast that you think it is random, because you feeble mind cannot comprehend even 100 events taking place, much less trillions of scientific events taking place in a split second.  Random is a damn excuse for human stupidity.
[/quote]
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Re: Randomness
Reply #132 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 10:41am
 
metha wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 4:15am:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:03pm:
True randomness could never be used in a mathematical equation.


Of course it could. probability distributions are very important in mathematics.

Quote:
The term mathematics is a precise set of rules that are not random.


OF COURSE the mathematics itself is not random. OF COURSE that is not the issue here. The point is that mathematics, of course not random in itself after defined, DEALS with randomness and calculates with random events.

There exists no random in the universe.
The reason why random has disclaimers on it is because pure random is not existent.
It is only cause and effect so fast that you think it is random, because you feeble mind cannot comprehend even 100 events taking place, much less trillions of scientific events taking place in a split second.  Random is a damn excuse for human stupidity.

[/quote]

You need to give up this idea of random. It only shows that you are not capable of understanding how the universe operates.

Just because you are not capable of understanding all the events taking place, because of your feeble mind, does not validate this false premise of random.
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Re: Randomness
Reply #133 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 12:22pm
 
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 10:41am:
You need to give up this idea of random. It only shows that you are not capable of understanding how the universe operates.


And you need to give up mathematics and physics, because you don't even understand what 1st year university mathematics on the basic and fundamental fourier series is about.

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Re: Randomness
Reply #134 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 1:27pm
 
metha wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 12:22pm:
GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 10:41am:
You need to give up this idea of random. It only shows that you are not capable of understanding how the universe operates.


And you need to give up mathematics and physics, because you don't even understand what 1st year university mathematics on the basic and fundamental fourier series is about.



I thought you were talking about euler's totient?
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