GoodScienceForYou Neutral Evolution Forum - It's important to start simple.

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It's important to start simple. (Read 20609 times)

GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #60 - Nov 28^th, 2009 at 5:01pm

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You cannot talk about DNA and not include traits

YES you can. Traits only emerge from DNA that is EXPRESSED. Most organisms have far more DNA that is actually used. There are long stretches of non-coding "junk" DNA that does not get used. This DNA mutates too.

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There can only be "traits" and information passed from parent to offspring. There is no other possibility. This is well known in genetics.

As I said. The parent passes DNA, that is often slightly changed.

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The ability of creatures to make changes to survive as the same creature is pretty obvious.

Same creature??? You just said earlier that no two individuals have the same DNA (except for twins maybe). So how can you call them the "same" creature.
They are very similar. If they are similar enough they can potentially produce viable offspring. This is how we define species.

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What is thought to be random "mutations" are neither random nor are they mutations. They are manifestation of the programming in the DNA and environmental adjustments, that can be retro or can come and go as the need of the organism changes.

So you're saying DNA copying errors are planned? What protein steps in at the right time to fudge up the copying process. NONE. This is not the case. DNA copy errors just happen (along with all of the other mechanisms of mutation).

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There are no accidents or random "mutations" because random is not even a scientific possibility in the physical world. There are only causes and effects in the real world.

I also have a feeling that there is no true randomness. It is clear to me that nothing escapes causality. BUT! BUT! The universe is so fantastically complex we see all sorts of phenomena that are, for all intents and purposes, random. Snowflakes all show structure and yet all are unique. They assemble according to the rules of physics and chemistry but still, they're all different, all essentially random.
Mutations are the same way. We can't know why or when DNA will mutate. It could be caused by a high-energy photon from a star 100 light years away, or it could be from a copy error. These things happen and even though they still obey physics, they engine is essentially random.

AXIOM: Changes to DNA occur "randomly" (both of us agreeing the idea of random in the physical world doesn't make sense, but the level of complexity makes the events we see essentially random).

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Magical thinking is not part of real science. This is one of my axioms which I prefer to call "absolute truths of science".

You use the word "absolute" quite often. "Absolute truth", "absolute evidence". It's interesting because it opens into the philosophical realm and that is not useful to us. I don't know that we can know anything to be "absolutely true". You'd always have to leave open the possibility you're being deceived by an evil genius with the means and the motive. I don't think this is the case but I don't go stomping around talking about absolutes.

So Now you accept magical mystical causes? Wow, do you ever think about what you are saying?
Who taught you out of the ability to see bovine garbage, could it be that these people indoctrinated you pretty good so that you don't even realize there is an absolute truth on any event, happening, physical phenomenon, chemical reaction. Every thing that happens in life has an absolute truth as to what really happened.
Using mystical and magical reasons is a religions belief. This is an absolute truth. It is not science! This is an absolute truth.
It amazes me when people stop seeking the truth and only seek to perpetuate beliefs. But that is what 99.9% of the people in science seem to do. This is because this ability to want the truth is superseded with mystical garbage belief in "theory is the highest truth in science".
What happened to that objective logic you were born with? Maybe it was never in your genetic make up to begin with.
Grin

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #61 - Nov 28^th, 2009 at 5:44pm

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Is this all just hilarious satire?

If so you're a genius!

I honestly can't tell if you're pulling my leg now.

"The first thing they do when you present the truth is denial for no reason. The next is they fight you. Then it becomes accepted."

You need to be able to listen. You need to learn from me if you want to be free of nonsense beliefs.

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #62 - Nov 28^th, 2009 at 5:49pm

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I know more about biology than you do

Yeah. Your descriptions of genetics and mutation illustrate this perfectly.. LOL... Grin

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Evodelusionism (my term for your religion.)

Oh here's a new word. I certainly haven't seen it in ANY posts you've made hear. Totally new. Wow, insightful..

Funny how you call this a "Neutral Evolution Forum" and then you already believe evolution is a delusion.

You are perfectly welcome to bring any absolute evidence that shows you are not a nut case religious fanatic. But so far all you have is logical fallacies and evidence that conflicts with the laws of physics.

Try another angle, because there for absolute damn sure is no evidence for it in DNA.

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #63 - Nov 28^th, 2009 at 7:31pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Nov 28^th, 2009 at 5:49pm:

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I know more about biology than you do

Yeah. Your descriptions of genetics and mutation illustrate this perfectly.. LOL... Grin

Quote:

Evodelusionism (my term for your religion.)

It is the Neutral Evolution Forum, because I am neutralizing it into nothing, rapidly. Grin

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #64 - Nov 30^th, 2009 at 12:35am

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I don't mean to insult, but you're just being frustratingly obtuse.

I still don't know what you do and don't know about genetics and cell biology. So we're ill-equipped to talk about anything more complex than that.

I work with physics, mechanical and electrical engineering, thermodynamics and solar electric. These are based on functional science.

I study genetics and cell biology and evolution from a huge distance, because early on I saw the delusion crap in it. Since in the 40 years since I started looking into it, there has been no evidence for evolution but a lot of evidence against it, it is not doing very well.
In the class room they use "slogans" that have never been tested by any scientific method. I find that disgusting.
They have bastardized most of the genetic terms to fit this absolutely unproven nonsense. I thought you had some actual physical evidence that was clear and had no belief in it. I am sorry that I expected more from you, but you are typical and have no news for me.
You are attempting to make something that needs to be simple, into some complex system of bovine garbage.

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Children inherit DNA and cell machinery, NOT traits.
[./quote]

This is unsubstantiated crap. "Children do not inherit traits." Where the hell did you get your degree? Was it the mail order PHD's I get in my email? You send in $20 and get a certificate. Roll Eyes

[quote author=424C4C5976405D765A404459454C290 link=1258492863/25#25 date=1258663475]
Mutation is a fact. DNA mutates.

However, scientist don't have a clue what the cause of these changes are and it is not a "mutation" unless you are an idiot, and there is no such thing a random in the universe!The universe runs on stable laws of science, but it appears that you don't have a clue about any laws of science.

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DNA determines organization.

You cannot have any structure or organization if the DNA has random changes. The universe operates on structure and the laws of science, which you seem to avoid.

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It's logical that if DNA can change then the organization can change.

The only place where any information can come from is passed down from the parents. Unless you are a nut case, and believe in fantasy magical, mystical causes. There is no random in the universe because of the laws of physics. Any BS that avoids the laws of physics is NOT science but is human garbage belief and basically that is mythological religion.

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I see that you believe in "adaptation", but from what I've read it's for the wrong reason. You seem to think that organisms have a built-in area of leeway in which they can fluctuate a bit, but that's totally wrong. So we need to get it cleared up.

So, without proselytizing , can you quote the parts you don't agree with and we can get on with discussion?

Adaptation is a fact. We know this is real. We can see this in the DNA as the genome responds to the environment. It is designed to survive not some human emotional mental garbage of evoldelusion.
Is that clear. You have no evidence of this Evodelusionism.

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #65 - Jan 21^st, 2010 at 8:01pm

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creatures changing their DNA over some immense time into entirely new creatures. That IS the question.

Once again you're skipping far far ahead. How can we discuss such things without a collection of mutually shared axioms. It's like discussing mathematics and you have different symbols for all of the operations and you're using a base 15 number system.

We can't get anywhere like this. You're really pushing the edge of my patience. Now do you want to work on building a set of axioms or are we done here?

I find it disgusting that you would think this.

I teach people to not be as stupid and gullible as you.

If someone is taking you for a ride, and the put a blindfold over your eyes, don't you think it is far better to find out what is at the end of the road FIRST
??? I don't know how or understand how anyone could be so stupid as your to accept this crap. But apparently you are just the gullible dumb ass stupid dip feculence who would be so stupid as to wear the indoctrination blind fold and believe this feculence.

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: It's important to start simple.
Reply #66 - Jan 22^nd, 2010 at 9:53am

How is it plausible for people to be free thinkers if all they do is parrot popular beliefs. This has been going on for as long as people can communicate. The children want to conform, so they lose their identity in what the "norm" is.

Children are not allowed the opportunity to think for themselves. Indoctrination with ideas that have no basis in reality is common in societies.

In this case the young children will attack those who don't conform and tell them they are stupid for not believing in this nonsense of evolution. The do this because the examples are set and kids can be pretty vicious emotionally to those who do not conform.

But when you come across someone who is in their 50's and does this juvinile nonsense, you know that they minds are ridged and so they are stupid by allowing this crap to control their thinking for so long.

There is absolutely no way a sane person could believe that fish came out of water with the intention to become a lizard.
This is total mythological bovine garbage.

That is funny, and sad at the same time. These clowns are out there professing to be free thinkers, when all they do is parrot idiotic concepts and present their agendas. They never have any real evidence and only cite other people's beliefs and religious Evodelusionism slogans that are not scientific concepts at all. The are totally unproven religious slogans.

The only agenda a true teacher has is to un teach you from delusional things. To help you to back off on your ridiculous beliefs.

When you attach yourself to a belief system (BS) you can un-attach yourself from it just as easily, but your ego, pride and the need to conform and go along with the popular religious beliefs of the times, Evodelusionism, is very strong.

These people have closed minds and because of that are stupid and stunted in their intellectual development.

"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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