GoodScienceForYou Neutral Evolution Forum - There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.

MajorAtheist

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #60 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 8:41am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 12:03am:

It is built in to humans to need to believe in some religious idea. It is deeply ingrained in the instincts of humans, because we have religious icons on the walls of caves. It has always been here.

They must have beliefs in how things happen. It is human nature.

When you destroy any form of normal religion in people's minds by brainwashing coercion, peer pressure and telling young people they are stupid if they believe in God, and then you replace it with a religion that is disguised as "science". You have this nonsense religion of Evodelusionism.

When we CAN prove the beliefs of the Religious Zealots are wrong, and since they continue to maintain those FALSE beliefs, we certainly have every right to call them stupid or at least FEARFUL!

When you are fearful of your God's punishment, there is no way you can believe in things that will get you punished! You just CANT do it even though you can't prove the scientists wrong on anything!

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MajorAtheist

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #61 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 10:47am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2010 at 9:58pm:

MajorAtheist wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2010 at 6:23am:

MajorAtheist wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2010 at 6:03am:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2010 at 8:28pm:

MajorAtheist wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2010 at 4:48pm:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 8:38pm:

MajorAtheist wrote on Jan 30^th, 2010 at 9:46pm:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 30^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

I have gone over this before. Being predictable has nothing to do with random. Random is not even a real word. It is a concept in abstract math that has never been shown to be part of the real physical world.

Every event in existence can be reduced to all the causes and calculated. You can do empirical testing on any physical event and determine all the causes and the way the forces work on ANY EVENT!

Just because YOU don't know what and how it works, does not make any event random. It is a human weakness to try and see things like luck. Or to use words like random to make an excuse for how stupid they are.

When some guy gets "hot" on the dice playing craps, it is because of how he is holding the dice, and trowing them, not because of luck. If he has a certain way of holding the dice and his "lucky" method is to put the two sixes together or whatever is part of his method. The next night he my crap out every time using what he thought was his "lucky" throw. It is because of the conditions of his muscles, his mental state etc that cause those dice to go hot for a while, but that rarely returns.

I have read about 6 books by professional gamblers in my life, people who actually make money on observing other people and making money on "hot" players. There is usually a pattern and a good observer will know when the thrower goes cold.

I read books on most subjects that deals with life and science.

There is no such thing a luck. There is no such thing as random. Both are fantasy created by people to explain things they don't understand.

When you are in business for yourself, you know that luck is not real. You study the market, make decisions based on experience and knowledge. That is what makes people lucky.
Being nice to other people and loving other people is part of that as well.

I do know this; There are a lot of people out there who want to use you, want to make you a pawn of their beliefs. If that is what you allow. I never allow people to do that to me, ever. People who actually care about you will tell you the truth.

It is the foundation of free thought.

I have explained everything to you.

Sadly, you have failed to prove me wrong. Go back and read and copy/paste an argument/statement that I made and SHOW me where it is wrong.

When you can't do this, you have NO reason to not believe me..........unless you are not smart or you FEAR your God!

You have a f**king rut etched in your mind, and you can't get out of that f**king rut.

I am don'e with you. If you can't stop lying about science, you dumb ass!

Come on GSFY, show me just 1 thing that I said that is wrong. I bet you CANT find anything, but I will give you a chance.

If you CANT, then I will just have to label you a liar! If you CAN, then I will admit you are right. I am not SCARED to change my beliefs, but for some strange reason you CANT!

WHY? WHO will punish you if you do? GOD or the Great Unicorn??? WHO do you believe is capable of flooding the world in order to wipe out the people that dont do as he commands them??? WHO are you afraid of? LMAO!

You're an idiot!

Who took your intelligence from you? Why did you cave in to nonsense? Are you really that weak? I don't like weak people who never protect their minds from indoctrination and other weak sucks.
You are not intelligent enough to be in the same room as me.

You are a liar and delusional. That goes with weak people who cave to social nonsense.

There is no random on this earth, because it violates the foundation of all scientific inquiry. The LAWof cause and effect.

Nobody can be as stupid as you, but it is fact.

WHAHAH! Again, I ask you..........just to see if you are lying or not...............what gives you the reason to believe that I have caved into nonsense, since you CANT prove that the nonsense that I believe is wrong? HUH?

Just SAYING it without having any reason to BELIEVE it is weak, stupid, and just plain out insidious to logic!

Let's see if you CAN back up your claim or if you just prefer to lie!! LOL

Why are you so weak?

Thinking that RANDOM violates the laws of cause and effect is STUPID, since random works WITHIN the laws of physics.

PROVE THIS IS WRONG, if you can, but I bet you CANT! Let's see if you can!!!!! LOL

You SEE, GSFY, if you CANT prove what I say is wrong/illogical/or a lie.............then you have absolutely no reason to not believe me unless you are too stupid to understand or too scared to understand. WHICH IS IT????

All events are the results of causes. Random or non reason events are mystical and magical.

IDIOT! WHAHAH! If all events are the result of causes, then there is no such things as events with no causes..............but yet you say non reason events are mystical.

How can NON reason/NON caused events even exist............if all events are the result of a cause???????? Man you are quite dumb!!

All events have causes, but the ones you dont know the causes to.............are called random.

Unless you can come up with a word that better describes them!

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #62 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 10:52pm

Events with unknown cause (i.e. we are not able to predict it, even though we in theory could), are apparently random, pseudo-random or seemingly random. We know we could have predicted them if we had enough information, like the throw of a dice right after it left our hand. To us it SEEMS random, even if it isn't.

However, there are such things as true random events taking place every day. I have given GSFY a concrete example of randomness and even explained to him WHY it is true randomness. We can predict the probability of an event, and so hence we KNOW that it is random (with a predictable probability), but GSFY still denies that fact, and it was a big mistake to do that.

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #63 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:02pm

metha wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 10:52pm:

Events with unknown cause (i.e. we are not able to predict it, even though we in theory could), are apparently random, pseudo-random or seemingly random. We know we could have predicted them if we had enough information, like the throw of a dice right after it left our hand. To us it SEEMS random, even if it isn't.

However, there are such things as true random events taking place every day. I have given GSFY a concrete example of randomness and even explained to him WHY it is true randomness. We can predict the probability of an event, and so hence we KNOW that it is random (with a predictable probability), but GSFY still denies that fact, and it was a big mistake to do that.

Because you cannot see or find the cause to be way beyond comprehension, still does not allow any science to violate the foundational laws of science.

Until it disappears from view and goes into a dimension that is NOT physical everything in the universe is cause and effect or cause and result, which is the foundational law of all science. It is what science is based on.

Because the human mind is weak and feeble that we use mystical nonsense to explain things we cannot possibly understand. Then we (figuratively) teach this crap to students as if we are the authority on life.

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #64 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:09pm

We know the causes! That is the whole point. Using those causes we can predict the probability. It is random because we can predict the probability. A throw of dice is not random (I agree on that) after the dice left our hand. Yes you are right: Given enough information about the dice the moment it leaves the hand, we can predict the result (practically impossible, but in theory we could). This SEEMS random, but isn't. The case about the electron IS random, because an electron is really very simple. It is an elementary particle, and easy to understand. However, it does NOT obey Newtonian physics. It obeys other simple laws, and we can predict its position and state, but never say with 100% certainty, simply because it doesn't obey Newtonian mechanics. You are the one that do not understand the causes. You say it's me? But I do, and it is not really that difficult. What you need to think about is that your thinking is locked in Newtonian physics, but the world is not that simple. There are other laws than Newtonian physics on the LARGE scale, and other laws on the very SMALL scale. The big thing in physics today is to join the theory of LARGE scale physics with SMALL scale physics.

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #65 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:14pm

metha wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:09pm:

We know the causes! That is the whole point. Using those causes we can predict the probability. It is random because we can predict the probability. A throw of dice is not random (I agree on that) after the dice left our hand. Yes you are right: Given enough information about the dice the moment it leaves the hand, we can predict the result (practically impossible, but in theory we could). This SEEMS random, but isn't. The case about the electron IS random, because an electron is really very simple. It is an elementary particle, and easy to understand. However, it does NOT obey Newtonian physics. It obeys other simple laws, and we can predict its position and state, but never say with 100% certainty, simply because it doesn't obey Newtonian mechanics. You are the one that do not understand the causes. You say it's me? But I do, and it is not really that difficult. What you need to think about is that your thinking is locked in Newtonian physics, but the world is not that simple. There are other laws than Newtonian physics on the LARGE scale, and other laws on the very SMALL scale. The big thing in physics today is to join the theory of LARGE scale physics with SMALL scale physics.

Like I said, when you can find the cause, you will see it is the result of a cause. It can be no other way.

I am not stubborn just not gullible to believe people who have extremely limited awareness.

When you are outside of yourself completely objective, then you can see the cause of everything.

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #66 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:19pm

Didn't you just read what I said? I said we know the causes. This is not a belief. This can be shown experimentally. You are the one that believes that Newtonian mechanics also govern the elementary particles. But we KNOW for a fact that this is not the case, because they VIOLATE Newtonian mechanics. YOU need to give evidence that it is not random, despite the experiments that have been done. YOU need to show and give evidence that elementary particles obeys Newtonian mechanics. I noticed you like Einstein, and you always quote him. But according to you he was still totally wrong in everything he said.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #67 - Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:55pm

Like I said, when you can find the cause, you will see it is the result of a cause. It can be no other way.

I am not stubborn just not gullible to believe people who have extremely limited awareness.

When you are outside of yourself completely objective, then you can see the cause of everything.

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"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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prolescum

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #68 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 6:35am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:55pm:

Like I said, when you can find the cause, you will see it is the result of a cause. It can be no other way.

Rinse and repeat, that'll get through to them...

Quote:

I am not stubborn just not gullible to believe people who have extremely limited awareness.

You're not stubborn, you're quite ignorant.

Quote:

When you are outside of yourself completely objective, then you can see the cause of everything.

So you are the only person in the entire world without a subjective view? I don't fvcking think so.
You can see the cause of everything? Why am I insulting you, then? Nope, it's not because I'm jealous of your false claims of a high IQ, it's not because you've read either 20,000, 200,000 (or whatever figure you've found somewhere that refers to the amount of papers there are on a given subject) peer-reviewed papers (you haven't - this is obvious even to laymen), it's not because I'm delusional, it's not because I fear the things you preach.
You know what? I'll actually tell you.
It's because you're fvcking hilarious. I tried to speak to you when I first joined, gave you the benefit of the doubt, have given you ample chance to prove ANYTHING you say is correct since.
What can we garner from your hundreds of posts? You're totally ignorant of each subject you attempt to tackle. Every thread is full of refutes which you ignore and build strawmen to validate your ego. Pathetic, yet hilarious.

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MajorAtheist

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #69 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 8:55am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:02pm:

metha wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 10:52pm:

Events with unknown cause (i.e. we are not able to predict it, even though we in theory could), are apparently random, pseudo-random or seemingly random. We know we could have predicted them if we had enough information, like the throw of a dice right after it left our hand. To us it SEEMS random, even if it isn't.

However, there are such things as true random events taking place every day. I have given GSFY a concrete example of randomness and even explained to him WHY it is true randomness. We can predict the probability of an event, and so hence we KNOW that it is random (with a predictable probability), but GSFY still denies that fact, and it was a big mistake to do that.

Because you cannot see or find the cause to be way beyond comprehension, still does not allow any science to violate the foundational laws of science.

Random does not violate any laws(not one) and since the outcome is unpredictable because we dont know of the laws involved.................the outcome is considered random.

PROVE THIS WRONG, but I bet you CANT! WATCH to see if I am right!

Being devoid of any rational thought, makes me believe you are one stupid person...................well, it might be fear, but you tell me that is wrong.

So, it must be stupidity! MUST BE!

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #70 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 9:11am

prolescum wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 6:35am:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:55pm:

Like I said, when you can find the cause, you will see it is the result of a cause. It can be no other way.

Rinse and repeat, that'll get through to them...

Quote:

I am not stubborn just not gullible to believe people who have extremely limited awareness.

You're not stubborn, you're quite ignorant.

Quote:

When you are outside of yourself completely objective, then you can see the cause of everything.

So you are the only person in the entire world without a subjective view? I don't fvcking think so.
You can see the cause of everything? Why am I insulting you, then? Nope, it's not because I'm jealous of your false claims of a high IQ, it's not because you've read either 20,000, 200,000 (or whatever figure you've found somewhere that refers to the amount of papers there are on a given subject) peer-reviewed papers (you haven't - this is obvious even to laymen), it's not because I'm delusional, it's not because I fear the things you preach.
You know what? I'll actually tell you.
It's because you're fvcking hilarious. I tried to speak to you when I first joined, gave you the benefit of the doubt, have given you ample chance to prove ANYTHING you say is correct since.
What can we garner from your hundreds of posts? You're totally ignorant of each subject you attempt to tackle. Every thread is full of refutes which you ignore and build strawmen to validate your ego. Pathetic, yet hilarious.

You can't insult me. You don't even warrant my time. I am using you for my book as an example of how stupid your beliefs are and how the belief is far more powerful than reality.

It is amazing just how lost in this crap you are. It is like it took over your mind, like a cancer or something.

I used to say that nobody could be that stupid as to violate obvious laws of science, but we have you as evidence. And all the people like you who believe in magical nonsense will be ridiculed like the people who believed the earth was flat.
Keep in mind that they fervently believed that garbage, the same way you believe your Evodelusion religion dogma.

You need to get free of this mental illness you have. You think that masses of people who have dogma and brainwashing as the foundation of belief, is just cause for you to believe this crap.

You are really stupid. Judd! Ignoremouse! Dumb ass! Delusional fool.

If you want to get free of the control this crap has over your life, you can.
You have to stop reinforcing your beliefs, and get away from the idiots who support this fantasy. Then study all the evidence from a position of objectivity ( I really doubt you can do that.) and you will start to see as I have there is no foundation for this belief in the world.

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #71 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 9:50am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 4^th, 2010 at 11:55pm:

Like I said, when you can find the cause, you will see it is the result of a cause. It can be no other way.

I am not stubborn just not gullible to believe people who have extremely limited awareness.

When you are outside of yourself completely objective, then you can see the cause of everything.

Ok, let me tell you again: We know the causes. An elementary particle is simple. Very simple. We know how it works. You think Newtonian mechanics, but since elementary particles do not adhere to Newtonian physics, we need to look at this differently. Do you agree? Good....?

Now, an elementary particle can be measured, like an electron. We can measure its position and state (spin). Why do we know that this is not Newtonian mechanics? Well, we measure it and we see that the spin cannot be predicted. Even more so... we can not even tell for certain where it is. Even you should understand (if you are into physics and mathematics), that this is a very simple experiment (where the electron is and in what state it is). We know which forces acts on an electron, and so we have full control over that. So there are NO other causes for spin and position, besides the forces we already know. We can even give the electron so strong forces that any other force is practically annihilated. So lets do that... we do it... and then we measure. What happens? If the electron followed Newtonian mechanics, we could easily predict position and state (spin). What happens? We cannot predict it! Why? What is going on? Why can an electron be at two different positions at the same time (we can easily measure this, right?)? What do we do? We measure and measure and measure and measure again and again and again and again. We never stop, and we see that the results follows a pattern the more we measure. What do we see? We see that the measurements obey a PARTICULAR probability distribution!!! What the f**k!!!!!! This is random, but we try to predict it, but we cannot! What does this mean? The simple answer is of course: It is random!

Let me get this straight: I am not talking about dice throwing, which is really not random after the dice left the hand. I am talking about true randomness, and a predictable probability to the spin of the electron. Since you are into physics, you understand this, but you have showed me again and again that you do not understand, and so hence your claims are just false! You need to show me that you understand what I am saying before you can argue against it. But you are not able to. Why? Because I am smarter than you, and I understand this physics. If you want to get your message through to me, you need to make me believe that you have an idea of what I am talking about. If you want me to calculate this for you, with a vector space over the field of complex numbers, by calculating eigenvectors and eigen values, then by all means ask me... unless you can do it yourself. But if you cannot, then you really have no business in arguing against it at all. Get over yourself.

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #72 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 11:06am

I already know all this. Don't keep repeating it like it is real.

Because YOU don't know the cause of this "event" does not make it random.

Electrons are on the subatomic level. They are easily affected just by a person standing in the room. Don't you know this?
It is close to impossible to test anything on that level.

As soon as you inject yourself or any instruments around an electron it will react to that and will not behave in its normal behavior. Don't you know this?

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #73 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 2:44pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 11:06am:

I already know all this.

Nope, you do not. And if you did, you would be able to answer my questions. But you aren't.

Quote:

Because YOU don't know the cause of this "event" does not make it random.

I know the causes, that is the whole point. We can in fact measure everything that influences the electron.

Quote:

Electrons are on the subatomic level.

Duh!!!

Quote:

They are easily affected just by a person standing in the room. Don't you know this?

You are insanely wrong. First of all, a person in a room could not influence an electron, because the forces influencing the electron are so much stronger than the gravity a person would be to an electron that it is directly annihilated.

Furthermore: again you just showed me that you do not understand how such experiments are done. All forces are eliminated during an experiment, and a particle collider is frozen down to practically 0 kelvin, or absolute zero, and there is not a person nearby AT ALL during any of these experiments. Tell me... are you really that ignorant?

Quote:

As soon as you inject yourself or any instruments around an electron it will react to that and will not behave in its normal behavior.

No it would NOT influence the electron, because my forces on the electron are equal to zero. But nevertheless, I am not nearby at all... I am maybe kilometers away from the absolute zero space where the measurement is happening.

Don't you know this?

Quote:

Don't you know this?

Pathetic!

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #74 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 3:11pm

Are you a troll? You don't make any logical sense.
Just pointing your finger at an electron beam will cause it to deflect.

Are you here just to help the Evodelusionists to continue to destroy biological science?

How many of Einstein's theories have been proven?
As far a I know only one.

There is no such thing as random in physics. It is only a term that can be used in abstract math and HAS NEVER BEEN applied to physics in any way.

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