GoodScienceForYou Neutral Evolution Forum - There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #90 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 3:37pm

Dab33r wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 7:12pm:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Random is imaginary, like the tooth fairy, and flying elephants on cartoons.

And with that, you completely disprove your statement that you believe only things that have been absolutely proven.

No legitimate scientist would ever make such an absolute statement about something for which there is insufficient evidence. There is no absolute proof for the claim that true random cannot possibly exist.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

This is how intelligent you are?
So far you are not doing very well.

You should be saying this to yourself.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Why do you allow people to control your mind with delusional magical crap like "random".

Yeah... instead, you should let GSFY control your mind with delusional magical crap like chimpanzees resulting from crossbreeding between humans and gorillas, and diamond being something other than carbon.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Do you understand?

We do, obviously you don't.

Determinism means that there is a cause for every effect.

Non-determinism means that there are uncaused effects - in other words, truly random events.

You have spent pages arguing in favor of strict determinism, although you claim otherwise.

What you are failing to understand is that the word "random" in scientific parlance does not mean strict non-determinism. We are not claiming that anything in the Theory of Evolution requires non-determinism. We are saying, and you are failing to understand, that science uses the word random to mean that the causes for the events are either not known, or beyond our current capability to calculate, and either way are simply not predictable with any reliable degree of accuracy.

What you are also failing to understand is that, even if random meant "non-deterministic", that would still have absolutely zero impact on the Theory of Evolution other than to change our statements from "random genetic errors" to "unpredictable genetic errors". It would do nothing to invalidate the Theory as a whole.

If you want to disprove the Theory of Evolution, you're going to have to spend your energy on other angles of attack, because this one is a big non-starter.

"Determinism" means there is an intelligent cause for every event and it is controlled by some deity. I have not seen that in my lifetime. There is only the laws of physics "for ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction". As you express so you get it back.

The belief you seem to have is based on nothing.

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Dab33r

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #91 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 4:48pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 3:37pm:

"Determinism" means there is an intelligent cause for every event and it is controlled by some deity.

Once again, you are making up your own definitions. Let's look at some real definitions, from various sources:

From wordnetweb.princeton.edu:

Quote:

(n) determinism (philosophy) a philosophical theory holding that all events are inevitable consequences of antecedent sufficient causes; often understood as denying the possibility of free will

From Wikipedia:
Quote:

Determinism is the view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

From Wiktionary:
Quote:

The doctrine that all actions are determined by the current state and immutable laws of the universe, with no possibility of choice.

And finally, from Merriam-Webster:
Quote:

a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws

There is nothing about a deity in any of those definitions.

If you want to have any chance of achieving credibility with your readers, you will have to stop making up your own definitions for things.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #92 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm

We all know that Evodelusionists hate the idea of God and that life is under some form of control. They are often looking for ways to make up their own morals and ethics and not wanting some deity to make the rules for them.

We all know that determinism is founded on "deity" in control.
And that this is the reason for all the nonsense.

Determinism is based on deity. It is a false premise. Nothing is predetermined exactly but is the results of energy expressed.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #93 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:21pm

There is no such thing as "random" in the unverse, yet idiots believe in this false premise, because they make up religious reasons for things they cannot understand.

And the definition of words are always being changed to match the stupid beliefs. That is one of my pet peeves with these screwed up pseudo scientists.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #94 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 7:02pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

We all know that Evodelusionists hate the idea of God and that life is under some form of control.

So you're saying the Catholic Church hates the idea of God?

No, we don't all hate the idea of God... Evolution and atheism - or anti-theism - have nothing to do with one another. The fact that the majority of atheists do accept evolution does not mean that one must be an atheist to accept evolution - as evidenced by the aforementioned Catholic Church.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

They are often looking for ways to make up their own morals and ethics and not wanting some deity to make the rules for them.

Do you believe there is a deity making your morals, ethics, and rules for you?

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

We all know that determinism is founded on "deity" in control.

Know, we do not all know that, because it is not true.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

Determinism is based on deity.

False. Determinism is nothing more than strict cause and effect.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

It is a false premise.

The only false premise here is your false premise that determinism is based on deity.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

Nothing is predetermined exactly but is the results of energy expressed.

We're not talking about predeterminism, we're talking about determinism. Maybe that's the problem: you have the definitions confused. I do not dispute that predeterminism involves deity... but I am not at all talking about predeterminism, I am talking about determinism.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

There is no such thing as "random" in the unverse, yet idiots believe in this false premise, because they make up religious reasons for things they cannot understand.

It may be true that non-determinism does not exist in this universe... but you are making an absolute statement that cannot be proven. So much for your claim that you believe nothing that cannot be proven...

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

And the definition of words are always being changed to match the stupid beliefs. That is one of my pet peeves with these screwed up pseudo scientists.

Definitions change as usage changes, and that's not restricted to science. Either way, no definitions have changed with respect to this discussion about determinism vs non-determinism except for your definitions of these words.

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Dab33r

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #95 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 7:05pm

Dab33r wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 7:02pm:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

There is no such thing as "random" in the unverse, yet idiots believe in this false premise, because they make up religious reasons for things they cannot understand.

It may be true that non-determinism does not exist in this universe... but you are making an absolute statement that cannot be proven.

And even if it is true that non-determinism does not exist in this universe, the only impact it has on the Theory of Evolution is to change the wording from "random genetic copying errors" to "insufficiently understood, and thus unpredictable, genetic copying errors". It does not challenge the validity of the Theory [b]in the slightest![b]

Seriously, this argument against the Theory of Evolution is a non-starter. You need to abandon it, and focus on arguments that might actually have some impact.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #96 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm

Dab33r wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 7:05pm:

Dab33r wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 7:02pm:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

There is no such thing as "random" in the unverse, yet idiots believe in this false premise, because they make up religious reasons for things they cannot understand.

It may be true that non-determinism does not exist in this universe... but you are making an absolute statement that cannot be proven.

And even if it is true that non-determinism does not exist in this universe, the only impact it has on the Theory of Evolution is to change the wording from "random genetic copying errors" to "insufficiently understood, and thus unpredictable, genetic copying errors". It does not challenge the validity of the Theory [b]in the slightest![b]

Seriously, this argument against the Theory of Evolution is a non-starter. You need to abandon it, and focus on arguments that might actually have some impact.

There is no evolution without "random" fantasy, mystical, events.

I find it difficult to think that anyone with a friggin brain would just lay down like a bitch dog and believe this crap.

Where is your absolute evidence for evolution? If you don't have any, why do you believe in this nonsense?

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #97 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:04am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

There is no evolution without "random" fantasy, mystical, events.

IF there is no "random", then what we have must be called something other than evolution, because it's still there. Evolution happened, and continues to happen, whether you call the genetic copying errors "random" or "not random, but based on causes too complex and/or insufficiently understood to be predictable".

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

I find it difficult to think that anyone with a friggin brain would just lay down like a bitch dog and believe this crap.

I find it difficult to think that anyone with a friggin brain would just lay down like a bitch dog and believe YOUR crap - and yet you apparently expect them to, or else you ban them.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

Where is your absolute evidence for evolution? If you don't have any, why do you believe in this nonsense?

All of the observable evidence, taken in its entirety, tells me that evolution is true. The branching tree of life evident in every organism I see, when I compare it to other organisms I have seen. The genetic evidence simply confirms it.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #98 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:01am

RealScienceForMe wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:04am:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

There is no evolution without "random" fantasy, mystical, events.

IF there is no "random", then what we have must be called something other than evolution, because it's still there. Evolution happened, and continues to happen, whether you call the genetic copying errors "random" or "not random, but based on causes too complex and/or insufficiently understood to be predictable".

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

I find it difficult to think that anyone with a friggin brain would just lay down like a bitch dog and believe this crap.

I find it difficult to think that anyone with a friggin brain would just lay down like a bitch dog and believe YOUR crap - and yet you apparently expect them to, or else you ban them.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

Where is your absolute evidence for evolution? If you don't have any, why do you believe in this nonsense?

All of the observable evidence, taken in its entirety, tells me that evolution is true. The branching tree of life evident in every organism I see, when I compare it to other organisms I have seen. The genetic evidence simply confirms it.

Evolution is fantasy. It is a delusional fantasy.

There exists NO evidence that even suggests it is possible.

If you have any evidence that makes you think it is real, I can help you to unravel it and show you what it really is.

If you only get your information from the indoctrination then you are not honest.

This is the Neutral Site on evolution, because I have no religion. I follow the evidence without social pressures or any form of indoctrination.

If you want be free, be free. It really is that simple.

Creationism is not science, and Evolution is not science. It is not one or the other it is neither are science. Both are based on faith and belief and that is not science.

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GoodScienceForYou YaBB Administrator Offline The obvious isn't obvious until it is obvious Posts: 1361 United States Gender:	Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics. Reply #99 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am The first thing I teach is what evidence really is. And try to unravel the delusional brainwashing used to perpetuate this crap on people. Let's start. We know you have no physical evidence for evolution so what do you "believe" is evidence?
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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #100 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 6:19pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am:

The first thing I teach is what evidence really is.

Evidence is that which can be observed. Do you disagree?

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am:

And try to unravel the delusional brainwashing used to perpetuate this crap on people.

... and instill your own brainwashing to perpetuate your own crap on people.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am:

Let's start. We know you have no physical evidence for evolution so what do you "believe" is evidence?

"We" know know such thing. The evidence has been presented to you many times, I see no need to do it again. Just read for yourself at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #101 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 7:56pm

RealScienceForMe wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 6:19pm:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am:

The first thing I teach is what evidence really is.

Evidence is that which can be observed. Do you disagree?

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am:

And try to unravel the delusional brainwashing used to perpetuate this crap on people.

... and instill your own brainwashing to perpetuate your own crap on people.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 10:04am:

Let's start. We know you have no physical evidence for evolution so what do you "believe" is evidence?

"We" know know such thing. The evidence has been presented to you many times, I see no need to do it again. Just read for yourself at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

I want you to stop posting that ridiculous site and tell me what you consider to be evidence? List it or go one at a time.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #102 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 3:05am

Major Atheist said this "IDIOT! WHAHAH! If all events are the result of causes, then there is no such things as events with no causes..............but yet you say non reason events are mystical.

How can NON reason/NON caused events even exist............if all events are the result of a cause???????? Man you are quite dumb!!

All events have causes, but the ones you dont know the causes to.............are called random.

Unless you can come up with a word that better describes them!"

And by so doing, "All events have causes, but the ones you dont know the causes to.......are called random."

And by doing so destroyed the foundation of atheism. That is exactly the point GoodScienceForYou have been trying to explain. No event is random, it is all governed by the principal of Cause and Effect. Even an atheist buddy of mine believes this and he doesn't realize that it devastates his belief that there is no god, meaning there is no ultimate cause.

So then let us discuss the Big Bang, an item in space where all gravity is centered in on a singularity. Suddenly the EFFECT is visible the singularity explodes and space-time is created, or so the story goes. The question to the Atheist is as follows, since Cause and Effect is the main principal of Science can we safely deduce that there was A Cause to the Effect? If you answer yes you have destroyed atheism.

Logical fallacies that you invoke if you say it caused itself, a being cannot exist before it exist. The singularity is also assumed to have remained in it's state for an undefined amount of time before the explosion, if no outside Cause or Force manipulated it, it would remain in that state forever.

As for the Coin toss, the entire point was that the outcome of the coin is decided by physical forces and not by some magical or assumed "random" none physical event. The experiment that is alluded to is to me a theoretical one and by the study of the movement of the coin in retrospect via cameras etc can be shown how the coin would land every single time if the right mathematical equations are calculated. No human have as of yet the mental capacity to make such predictions without the use of a way of observing this as far as we know, by our natural means. If however every aspect can be measured then we will notice that Gravity and Forces actually decides the outcome.

We can sum it up in a simple question. Did gravity at any point NOT affect the coin that was tossed, or did antagonizing forces not affect the coin? Such as the coin on it's way up, did your "random" affect the coin. How can Random affect anything if it's not governed by physical laws? Maybe the atheist have to resort to the spiritual realm to explain such events?

In conclusion we must conclude (pun) that random events does not take place, thus it is a given that an ultimate cause exist. Thus the belief that "God did it" is not only a logical step but an honest one. This is based on observations of reality and does not cause any logical fallacies. No guys, God did not create Himself and God was not created.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Cheers gang, will check the rest of the forum to see if I can find anything I don't agree with or agree with.

Ron.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #103 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 4:20am

Mac23 wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 3:05am:

And by doing so destroyed the foundation of atheism.

The "foundation" of atheism? There is no foundation. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a God.

Mac23 wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 3:05am:

it devastates his belief that there is no god, meaning there is no ultimate cause.

Question for you: what caused God to exist?

And no, sorry, I don't buy that special exemption you give to your God:

Mac23 wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 3:05am:

God did not create Himself and God was not created.

I was going to respond to all of your points individually, but it would be a waste of time. Here's the bottom line. Either:

1. Non-deterministic events can occur

or

2. Everything has existed forever, and there is no ultimate cause.

I'm personally leaning towards 1, because 2 sounds a little too much like the special exemption. While it appears to be true that everything in the natural world is governed by Cause and Effect, it appears that at the Planck scale, truly non-deterministic events can occur. I'm talking about quantum physics here. Such a random event would have been the origin of all matter an energy in the universe, and the cause of the Big Bang.

But let's assume your argument is valid, and that there must have been an "Ultimate Cause": By what logic do you conclude which God it was that exists and was that "Ultimate Cause"? Where is the evidence from which to conclude that it is the Christian God, or the Islamic God, or some other God?

Here's the kicker to all of this: It is a false argument to claim that evolution requires non-deterministic random events. Evolution works just fine with all genetic variations having a causal chain.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #104 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 4:33am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 7:56pm:

\I want you to stop posting that ridiculous site and tell me what you consider to be evidence? List it or go one at a time.

Ok, let's start simple. What alternative explanation can you give for the observed commonalities among organisms that exist today? I obviously can't list all of those commonalities, as there are far too many and to do so accurately would require far too much detail... but here's a small example: cats, dogs, and humans (and probably many other animals, but I don't have time to research a full list) all have hind legs where the upper (thigh) has one bone, the femur, and the lower (calf) has two bones, the tibia and the fibula, and a bone over the knee, the patella.

Comparative morphology, such as the very small and specific example above, applied to the entire kingdom of life, would allow us to construct a branching tree, with organisms that are more similar being closer together, and animals that are more varied being further apart.

How else would you explain this pattern? What other cause would give this result?

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