Quote:


(Update: Nov 30 2009;  Inglorious is what is known in the message forum world as a troll.  He misrepresents himself in order to play stupid games.  He is a 100% member of the Evodelusion cult and trying as hard as he can to find fault in my writings.  Basically, he represents the levels of "ethically challenged" behavior that comes from being brainwashed into beliefs that have no foundation in science. His actions are sociopathic, with no regard nor respect for anyone. You can see that I believed him in the beginning.  I trust people until it is clear they are lying to me.  If he will lie about this, then you can't believe anything he says.)


Thanks for coming by, but this is the Neutral Evolution forum and we don't tell others how to answer, because that is not science.  We listen and learn. Telling others how to answer is not even polite. Requesting of people that you want evidence and not opinion is different. That is the scientific inquiry.

The question is do you really want to know and are you willing to listen and find the reality of science? (update: The answer was no before we even got started,because Inglorious is a troll.)

I learned this over 47 years ago, and it has not changed ever in real science. Any alteration is a bastardization of science because the people in the academia with mythological (Evodelusionism) religious agendas, are trying to keep their HEMG mental programmed silly jobs and have the "world is flat syndrome" deep in their brain.

The scientific method as it has been for over 200 + years is based on testing ideas to see if they are real.

---You start with an observation of a physical observed phenomenon that you can actually see, and pose a question about what it is? (Normally you break it down into only one premise at a time. This creates focus on the single phenomenon. Any time the "scientists" injects a lot of ideas at one time, ti is not using the real scientific method. Focus only on one thing at a time.)

(Since you cannot observe evolution happening, and when this was posed as a theory, it was and still is not even a natural phenomenon, but is a religious belief. There is no way to see evolution happening in creatures, except by belief.)

--The question becomes the hypothesis (or a series of hypotheses) as to why. Then that becomes the "premise" you are testing to understand the causes and effects of it in the natural world.

--You put the premise in the center of the circle and attack it from ever possible plausibility.  You imagine what would be the cause and test from as many angles as you can think of.  You NEVER impose your belief on science and eliminate any plausibility that would limit the scientific method (as is done today in Evodelusionism). You cannot define what is science, except that mystical, magical, metaphysics is not used.  Objectivity is the absolute necessity in a scientist and no beliefs projected on the evidence nor opinions from those beliefs are allowed.  Only when the data shows the possibility of and absolute trend do you make observations and conclusions with NO mystical, unfounded  beliefs allowed.  Listen to these videos in order.









Implications, inferences and projection of belief is not scientific. This is never allowed. Opinions are not evidence.




--Then you start to think on all the ways possible to test this phenomenon in real physical scientific experiments as it congeals into a theory.

You cannot simply look at some artifact and make determinations all by yourself. You must have a form of physical, testing that is objective, obvious, empirical and has no opinions nor belief in it as to the cause.  This absolutely requires DNA testing on fossils. (This eliminates the pseudo science of paleontology on most fossils, by the way. They have not used any scientific testing on replacement fossils, because there is nothing left in the specimen to test.)

--If you have any test that is successful, you start testing more and more; the same test over and over and over and if it shows the same results; good.  If you get many more tests that suggest this may eventually develop into a scientific fact and on to a scientific law, you proceed to test and test.  You share you scientific data and have an "open" forum amongst all scientists and have them do the same "physical testing".  You never impose unscientific, magical or religious belief on any evidence. 

--When all the testing by ALL possibilities that human beings can think of, has the same results with the same experiments and there is never any contrary result nor any ambiguous inferences (from belief), you can then use this as a science fact. You only go with what is shown in evidence and has no way to be manipulated by conjecture. Conjecture on evidence is the same as opinions. There is no such thing as "expert opinion" in science, if you want to avoid all HEMG from the system.

--If there is nothing that negates this it can become a theory of science after thousands of experiments, not before.  (One time that it fails and when tested that way it always fails then your idea is not proven.) (Idiots have theories, when they have no testing at all.) After many years of no different results on millions of experiments it becomes law. Then it is at the highest level of scientific "truth", never before. A theory is not a scientific truth, never has never will be.

--Falsification is not included in the scientific method. It has never been a part of it.  We only seek the truth and nothing else on any natural event on this earth.  This is true science. This is because you cannot falsify something that can never be tested as in the Theory of Evolution which is a metaphysical religious belief that can't be tested by any physical methods.

If you find any other nonsense, called the scientific method, it is not allowed here. Here we only go with the classic and well known scientific methods and we do not allow any opinions or mystical, metaphysical answers that have no evidence at all, (like evolution/creation has), in science here.


If it can't be tested, or there is no "tools" available to see the cause,  then it is thrown out and we start with a new project or a new way of testing when the tools are available.  No assumptions are allowed in real science, only what is empirically tested millions of times can be considered to be real.

Axioms of science can only be based on real evidence and it must be self evident with no opinions.

You cannot just look at something, declare that you are an expert, and call that science.  Understand? This is done now and they abuse the term scientist with this nonsense HEMG.

This is why the theory of evolution is not science. 

Genetics and DNA study is. I have never found a single thread of evidence for any evolution in DNA or Chromosomes or observed speciation.  There is only a natural change in the creatures to survive as the same species in evidence and then extinction when the requirements for life of that particular genetic structure can no longer survive.  That is all the evidence there is in all the papers I have read on this subject.

I really despise any religion in science.  It retards any progress towards the truth.

If your religion is true then it would be able to stand up to real scientific investigation.  There is only one truth, not two or three.

Quote:


If you test gravity over and over and over and it always give the same results, under the same exact conditions, it is law. If you find that when you take it out of the conditions and it does something different under those conditions but still has the same results millions of times it is also a law under those conditions.

You cannot always see the cause, because the tools we have are so crude, so you never project what you think you see.

At the basic foundation of science are principles that can be used over and over, like a gift of nature, but humans lack the ability to determine the cause, because you cannot go any deeper than these foundations of science.  They are root and can't ever be explained. These are the foundation of all science.


Evolution as it is presented has obvious roots that could be explained and tested, if we had a time machine. It is not testable at this moment. There is no scientific method possible to test it. Therefor it is not science.

There is a law of truth.  For ever event that took place there is an exact truth how it occurred.  If you have no way to test what the truth was, you have to stop until you have the tools that actually can be proven to work. 

You have to also prove the tools. In evodelusion the dating methods are only assumptions and nothing else. Paleontology is only an assumption of belief and nothing else. It should not be in science at all. No scientific methods can be used in that science that are repeatable or verifiable by any other science.

Gravity is in the here and now and is fully testable by the scientific method.

Evolution is in the deep past and can't be tested at all. There is no way to make evolution take place, even in the last 50 million years the fossils remain almost exactly the same morphology.

I can test gravity all day long and it is the basis of chemistry. Without gravity there is no chemistry.  Don't you know that.  If you keep going all sciences will be discarded by your beliefs.

The question you can ponder that goes into the metaphysical and NOT science, is where did those foundational principles, the absolute archetypes of science come from?  Gravity, polarity, mass, momentum, magnetism, energy, etc.  No human can answer that from the perspective of being a human.  Science does not have hardly any answers at all, if you were to really analyze how much we know against how much there is to know we are pretty stupid.

Humans are frail weak creatures with nasty natures to hate one another over their various religions, races and politics and even pseudo science now is the same. In other words they can barely wipe there asses and most children are taught to put faith in these messed up authorities.

The truth comes and is after you get rid of all human emotional mental garbage beliefs.

Ask all the questions you want.  You are the first to pose any real science questions so far on here.

Quote:


First you have to define "mutations" to you so you know what it really means and what that is vs what they think they see in the genome DNA.


Mutation is a foundational scientific term that also goes back hundreds of years with an established definition in genetics.  It does not need to be bastardized and have the meaning changed for no reason.  It disgusts me when they use flim flam and change the meanings of words when there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to.  Mutation is a phenomenon that is well recorded in medical and in scientific journals and it only refers to a genetic screw up on the number of chromosomes that causes and out of balance an deformed creatures or deformed chromosomes.  These mutations don't make it into main stream of the genus are always ill in some way and need a lot of help to survive if the make it at all past birth.  I have read many papers on this.

With the advent of DNA these fools try all they can to force belief on DNA and took Mutation to mean "difference in the DNA" It is not a mutation at all by the established meaning.

Do offspring automatically have hump backs, tails, and have brain deformities?  AS is the real definition of mutation?

It is a horrible abortion of science to destroy foundational scientific terminology that has been well established and make a mockery of science as they do in the name of this religion.

In the DNA of the offspring, the DNA shown can only come from the parents.  There is no other way it can appear.
Do you understand that?

Start there.

Quote:


You are finally asking good questions.

These 100 or so apparently different DNA coding can only come from the genetics and all information is  passed from the parents.  There is no other cause that can even be construed,because random is not a term you could ever use in genetics.
If even one base pair can cause serious life threatening disease, then 100 screwed up random base pairs would mean immediate death.

The children of humans are always unique and amazingly different but they never (if they are healthy) are any other creature, but human.

If these are "random mutations" as these pseudo scientists call them (those who project belief of Evodelusionism on the DNA), then human life would not go on.  You must be able to see this, because it is obvious.  If life is as shown in the DNA is random then it is "fluid" and has no genetic stability. This equals death and no life.

The opposite is true: "The only thing shown in DNA is genetic stability."  The only thing in speciation is genetic stability. The only thing shown in the fossil record is genetic stability. This is from empirical evidence that cannot be refuted. It is in all the Evodelusionist papers, by the way.

If you "randomly" mess with one DNA pair you can cause devastating results, like the sickle cell anemia and or totally malfunctioning cells.   This would in turn doom humanity to extinction and a fast one at that.  Random is a disastrous word in genetic structural coding.  There is no random in the physical world ever. It is not a scientific term that should ever be used.  I have performed thousands of hours of testing, writing computer programs and there is no random,only in pure abstract (having nothing to tie it to the physical) mathematics.

There is no random, there is only a cause contained in the reproductive process. There is nothing else.

We can speculate all day long, but I know for sure there is no random changes in the DNA.  They have a cause. The effect is demonstrated in the DNA, but not the cause. That is deeper than we can see at the present time.

Science law;  Nothing can ever be the cause of itself even if the cause is not apparent.  So, DNA is not the cause of DNA but a result.  The cause of this changed DNA is not apparent and you should never invoke religious fantasy ideas on science.

In the baby, these could be just the appearance of some ancient coding from many ancestors back, laying dormant for many hundreds or thousands of years.  But they can only come from the parents passed on to the child.

If the mother is on drugs this can cause genetic destructive effects on the child. But this again is not a random event. It is caused.  When her child with this drug induced birth defect has children they may carry the messed up DNA and pass it on.

This is not random but has cause and effect.

The changes in the DNA is evidence, but does not establish a law unless the changes are always the same and never vary from parent to offspring in the result shown in ALL  the DNA of all the test subjects.

Quote:


This idea of random mutation is part of the belief that has no foundational scientific testing to support it. There is not a single paper with any evidence nor testing by the scientific method.  Go read all you can on this and tell me where the scientific method is used to back up this assertion based on evolution belief? It does not exist, because there is no test for this.  It is not even logical at all. Random DNA changes spells death to the creature. Then extinction altogether.

The only place these DNA changed can come from is the parents. There is no other possibility.  Genetic stability is all that is shown. They make the assumption that what they can now perceive is all there is. They are actually looking at results and thinking they have "causes".


Quote:


(Troll notes: Here this troll, Inglorious, tries to pass as a "layman", but it is obvious he is brainwashed and deceptive.  The DNA does not have "A T G C I". Isn't he just so HEMG clever? People who think they are smart and pull crap like this are to be avoided and many of these forum "Nazis" do this crap. It is called "seeding the forum".)


The conclusions are not based on any evidence nor testing. It is only based upon the belief in what they think they are seeing.  Conclusions based on pre-belief and no evidence to back it,  as to what they want to see, is not science.  I go by what is actually there and what surrounds this, like the real world of creatures and the evidence we see there. All of it must fit perfectly or it is not real.  Their assumptions about DNA do not even remotely fit all of the evidence. And most all of the "evidence" for evolution is not evidence (not science) at all but belief in what they were brainwashed into thinking. They are not objective if they are believers. Belief destroys a scientist immediately. Belief in fairy tale mystical, mythological creatures that have never existed is on of their favorite fantasies.

Genetic instability is a disaster to any creature. If you hit the sperm with radiation and cause it to really mutate you get creatures that have never been able to make it in the real world. They die. The sperm dies or if it actually can inseminate the cells are messed up.  Only a stability in the genome is actually shown.  These differences can only come from the parents.

Quote:


(This guy is such a friggin troll.)
The change in the base pair from the parent comes from the parent.  That is why it is a natural change and not some genetic mutant freak or just comes out dead all the time. 

Dominant and recessive genes is the actual terminology before this crap got into science.

They have no idea what is going on, yet they speak.  All you are hearing is a belief with no evidence to back it.  Seeing the results are not harmful of the changes is not evidence.  If the changes in the DNA is harmful and it comes from the parents, they would not know where it comes from until they have a complete DNA analysis of all the ancestors up and until they find the ancestor with that messed up DNA.  They have never done this on any large level of testing and for the purpose of finding where this genetic feature really came from. They are blind as to any of this, because they only believe in Evodelusionism and don't want to find out.


Quote:


The new DNA is not new, if you can find it in any ancestor. But they never look for these traits in the ancestors to find out how they arrived in the offspring.
I have seen many great grand children who look like their great grand parents, the spitting image.  Those looks are genetic in nature.  There is only genetic information and traits passed down, not any magic in real science.

There is no mysticism nor magic in real science.


Quote:


I am sorry but mathematics does not work in genetics. Really. Every time they try it fails because their is no random in the physical world.  It is an apparent chaos that is not chaos at all.

If you go these scientist would go back a few 8 or so generations and check the DNA in all the ancestors, I would be anything you will find the exact traits that are missing from the current parents but are in the child are in some ancestor. There can only be genetics passed down and that has to have a cause. There is no random in the DNA.

There is no random in the physical world.
These pseudo scientist will never go back on any real scientific method and check the DNA of the ancestors until they find this exact patter in some ancestor.  It would destroy their belief in "Evodelusionism" and no government funding would help them either to find the truth if they proposed it as an experiment to destroy the theory of evolution by real facts. They would not get any grant money for seeking the truth.

Quote:


There are 3.2 Billion base pairs in the human genome.

And even though you have only a hundred or so that are different than both parents. Those 100 interact with 3.199 billion base pairs to form 319 billion different combinations of cell constructs that are all integrated in the human child.
This is why there is so much difference in the children. 100 base pairs alone is nothing, it is the interaction of the completed RNA processes that build these cell systems that interact throughout the body that create the huge differences in the children.  This is obvious by all of the evidence we have. There is no such thing as a disintegrated life form.  Each part interacts to support the whole organic structures and assemblies.

Quote:


When you get a fantasy told to you, it is up to you to realize what is going on.  Nobody has the right to inflict their beliefs on you.  It is up to you to stay clear of all beliefs until it is proven to you absolutely.
That includes anything I tell you.  When you read my stuff, go check it out.  When you read Evodelusion stuff, you will find nothing but the projection of the idea of evolution and no evidence for it.  There is no evidence for evolution. It does not exist.

There is ONLY evidence for genetic stability. There is evidence for adaptation to the environment, but only to a point. Once the species can no longer adapt as that species they go extinct. There is no trail of evolution on this planet.  It does not exist in physical evidence. These are irrefutable facts shown in evidence.
There can only be genetic answers to any species.  There is no evolution shown anywhere.

The theory of evolution is base upon mystical events and magical processes that have never been shown to be in any evidence.

Quote:


Excellent question!  You are very intelligent.

The answer is in the coding that is causal. What you see in DNA is an effect or result of the causes.  The absolute causes of this DNA replication is not seen by these people so they think they are at the end of the line. This has been seen over and over as new technology reveals itself.
DNA is not the cause of DNA, because nothing in the physical universe can be the cause of itself.  This is a scientific law.

There is so much they don't know about this phenomenon.

Because this offers them a chance to project their dumb beliefs on this DNA they call it "random mutations" and express their false authority as scientists, which is based on nothing but a HEMG belief and a need to keep that belief going.

If you were to go back in the genealogy of any human you will find and exact same set of DNA coding that matches what is seen in the down line of the genealogy in the present generations.  They will never look for this, because it ruins their religious beliefs.

At some point in the future, this will become obvious. This crap religion will eventually get purged from genetics.

Anyone who believes in evolution has no credibility with me, because so far it has no evidence to substantiate any of it.


This can only be true, not some mystical magical "random" without any causes.  These low IQ people cannot face any facts nor can they do anything that would ruin the religion. 

There is no random, so random is not a possibility.  Do you understand? There is only cause and effect in the natural world of science.  Random = death and extinction.

Nothing can appear on this earth without cause.  No magic is allowed in science. DNA cannot be the cause of itself.

There can ONLY be information transferred to the offspring, what is in the DNA is not all of it, but only what can be seen now.  This is obvious because these traits are not shown in the "effect" or results of the traits in the DNA shown in the parents, but they are "exposed" or revealed  in the child.

This is standard genetics that has been around for nearly a century. Before this mystical crap religion of projecting fantasy on all the evidence, we knew this. 

It was apparent in all the relatives we could see from the current offspring.
Now that they have a new level of understanding with DNA, they are dumb enough to think that is the end of the line. This is like how we found germs (bacteria and virus) the first time and thought that was the end of the line.

We will have to wait to see the extremely complex cause of this simple DNA replication that is supposed to be the end all of genetics. 

Now they want to mess with this, when they have not a clue what it is. That is typical of arrogance and ignorance combined.

Quote:


This shows only a change, not the cause. That is where you put your religious belief and screw up the evidence with crap pseudo science.

There is no random in the physical world.  Repeat that truth until you get it.

There is only a cause that can only come passed through the parents.  There can never be any random in any creature.  This would destroy the species.  You cannot have genetics that is random.  If it is random,then it is fluid and not stable.  There is nothing but genetic stability shown in the real world of fossils, DNA, and in all of genetics. This is an axiom of truth that you cannot falsify.

If you have not stable DNA or genetics you have no creature. It goes rapidly extinct. It is either stable or it goes extinct quickly. There is no gray on this axiom.

You do not understand the cause, because it is not apparent to you.  Just like when you try to use a magnifying glass to look at bacteria, you can't see the cause of the disease, until you have the tools to see it.  IN the same way until you see the cause you are ignorant to it.