GoodScienceForYou Neutral Evolution Forum - There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.

prolescum

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #75 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 4:10pm

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Close this dumbf**k idiot forum and get back to your life, GSFY. Maybe in a few years, if you study hard enough, you'll be able to converse with the adults, but I don't hold out much hope.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #76 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 7:32pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 3:11pm:

Are you a troll? You don't make any logical sense.
Just pointing your finger at an electron beam will cause it to deflect.

Are you here just to help the Evodelusionists to continue to destroy biological science?

How many of Einstein's theories have been proven?
As far a I know only one.

There is no such thing as random in physics. It is only a term that can be used in abstract math and HAS NEVER BEEN applied to physics in any way.

Two words:
Quantum Physics.

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Dab33r

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #77 - Feb 5^th, 2010 at 11:11pm

Quote:

Two words:
Quantum Physics.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, just for a second... even in Quantum Physics, we DON'T KNOW if events are truly random, or if there is some underlying cause that we simply don't know of, or aren't capable of detecting (yet).

In the Determinism vs. Non-Determinism argument, I think Quantum Physics is the only hiding place left for Non-Determinism... but time will tell if it is truly non-deterministic.

That being said, EVEN IF it is deterministic, it still doesn't have ANY effect on the validity of the Theory of Evolution. The Theory in NO WAY depends on TRULY RANDOM, TRULY NON-DETERMINISTIC events.

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #78 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 2:57am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 3:11pm:

Are you a troll? You don't make any logical sense.

Oh, so now that you are unable to answer my questions, you are calling me a troll? I, who have tried discussing with you on an adult level.

Quote:

Just pointing your finger at an electron beam will cause it to deflect.

Who doesn't make any logical sense, again?

Quote:

Are you here just to help the Evodelusionists to continue to destroy biological science?

I have said this to you many times before, but I will say it again: I do not know too much about Evolution yet, and I searched some forums to learn and discuss. I found out that this forum was not one of the places to take seriously.

Quote:

How many of Einstein's theories have been proven?

None.

Quote:

As far a I know only one.

Which one? The special theory of relativity or the general theory of relativity? If you again will write down e=mc^2, I will most definately laug my a** off. You're warned.

Einstein published about 300 articles, including some papers on quantum mechanics.

You failed to answer any of my questions. If you understood and knew the answer, it would take 2 minutes to write them down, but you didn't, and I know why.

Quote:

There is no such thing as random in physics. It is only a term that can be used in abstract math and HAS NEVER BEEN applied to physics in any way.

"Random" is NOT used in abstract math, but very concrete math like statistics and analysis. You do not know what abstract math is. You call it abstract math because you do not understand it. The definition of abstract math is NOT: "Math that is out there", like you think. Abstract math is about how it is presented, not the content and the results. There is an abstract way to do math and there is a more concrete way. THe abstract math seeks to generalize and axiomatize the mathematics involved, such that it can be applied to MORE! Of course abstract math has been used in physics. You told me you read Einstein (was it one paper only? Or one formula?), and obviously abstract math is involved. Stop quoting the man if he is such an idiot. Even linear algebra has an abstract way of being presented. Actually in most courses it is presented abstractly with axioms of vector spaces. That IS abstract, but yet VERY real.

Quote:

even in Quantum Physics, we DON'T KNOW if events are truly random, or if there is some underlying cause that we simply don't know of, or aren't capable of detecting (yet).

We don't really know anything with 100% certainty, contrary to what GSFY says. I have never claimed this with 100% certainty. However, if the uncertainty principle is true (which seems very likely), then we can never say anything for sure about a particles momentum and position. If we measure momentum with very much accuracy, we know less about position and vice versa. Since we never can determine with 100% certainty (no matter how hard we try), this is for us random, since we cannot determine it. In all of this, the following is important: This is NOT a statement about our inability to do experiments and measurements. It is a statement about nature itself.

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #79 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 11:16am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Jan 24^th, 2010 at 5:01pm:

You are very low IQ if...

You are very low IQ, MajorAtheist. How on earth can someone be low IQ?

YOU, MajorAtheist, is just a quotient. You, Sir, are accordong to GSFY a number divided on another number. YOU, MajorAtheist, are VERY, VERY special!

If people cannot see the irony in this, then they are very low IQ.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #80 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 7:56pm

Dab33r wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 11:11pm:

Quote:

Two words:
Quantum Physics.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, just for a second... even in Quantum Physics, we DON'T KNOW if events are truly random, or if there is some underlying cause that we simply don't know of, or aren't capable of detecting (yet).

In the Determinism vs. Non-Determinism argument, I think Quantum Physics is the only hiding place left for Non-Determinism... but time will tell if it is truly non-deterministic.

That being said, EVEN IF it is deterministic, it still doesn't have ANY effect on the validity of the Theory of Evolution. The Theory in NO WAY depends on TRULY RANDOM, TRULY NON-DETERMINISTIC events.

This is an excellent post of yours! I congratuate you on this post!! Smiley

It is a breakthrough. I hope.

I see where you are caught. I understand your dilemma.

Deterministic has nothing in common with cause and effect.
You do not have to assume that. This is the argument that has no basis in pure logic. There exists NO deteministic logic in the universe! AND there is no such thing as random.

Both are magical thinking. One is not part of the other, both are false. One is used to brainwash you into this idea of random as if the alternative is deterministic or religous. That is not even logic. It is nonsense.

Everything in this universe is cause and effect and there is no determinism based on some unseen power. The power does not have to be unseen, because it is obvious and shown in all the laws of science that perpetuate life and life science, and is clear when you get clear of all delusions. The power of the universe IS the laws of science and you cannot violate the laws of science, even if you can't understand them.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #81 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 8:31pm

Quote:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 3:11pm:

Are you a troll? You don't make any logical sense.
Just pointing your finger at an electron beam will cause it to deflect.

Are you here just to help the Evodelusionists to continue to destroy biological science?

How many of Einstein's theories have been proven?
As far a I know only one.

There is no such thing as random in physics. It is only a term that can be used in abstract math and HAS NEVER BEEN applied to physics in any way.

Two words:
Quantum Physics.

Quantum physics has many things it cannot verify. I only go by what is testable. Most of it only works on exactly the same types of energy and you cannot mix things like biological complex and precise events and nonsense of things like random.
Every time I read about the attempts to violate science because they believe in something, it becomes more clear how powerful beliefs and dreams are. Reality is not as important as perpetuating faith and belief in things they, you and me cannot see. This is what I see in Evodelusionism, because you cannot prove 90% of it as even close to plausible. All religion is base on a faith in things that cannot be proven. Ever notice that?

There is not one single piece of physical evidence that "says" evolution. Nothing to tie the belief to reality.

All that exists in this world is that creatures are programmed to survive and adapt as needed to stay alive as THE SAME CREATURE. If you can find something different then show it to me. I have looked for over 41 year into this and I keep coming back to see no improvement on the path to show this is real. It gets worse as evidence shows up, but the Evodelusionists are more crafty at keeping it real in their minds by not looking at other plausibilities. They are blind to reality because of the forced belief. Just like any religion based on human emotional needs.

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"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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GoodScienceForYou

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #82 - Feb 6^th, 2010 at 8:39pm

metha wrote on Feb 6^th, 2010 at 2:57am:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 3:11pm:

Are you a troll? You don't make any logical sense.

Oh, so now that you are unable to answer my questions, you are calling me a troll? I, who have tried discussing with you on an adult level.

Quote:

Just pointing your finger at an electron beam will cause it to deflect.

Who doesn't make any logical sense, again?

Quote:

Are you here just to help the Evodelusionists to continue to destroy biological science?

I have said this to you many times before, but I will say it again: I do not know too much about Evolution yet, and I searched some forums to learn and discuss. I found out that this forum was not one of the places to take seriously.

Quote:

How many of Einstein's theories have been proven?

None.

Quote:

As far a I know only one.

Which one? The special theory of relativity or the general theory of relativity? If you again will write down e=mc^2, I will most definately laug my a** off. You're warned.

Einstein published about 300 articles, including some papers on quantum mechanics.

You failed to answer any of my questions. If you understood and knew the answer, it would take 2 minutes to write them down, but you didn't, and I know why.

Quote:

There is no such thing as random in physics. It is only a term that can be used in abstract math and HAS NEVER BEEN applied to physics in any way.

"Random" is NOT used in abstract math, but very concrete math like statistics and analysis. You do not know what abstract math is. You call it abstract math because you do not understand it. The definition of abstract math is NOT: "Math that is out there", like you think. Abstract math is about how it is presented, not the content and the results. There is an abstract way to do math and there is a more concrete way. THe abstract math seeks to generalize and axiomatize the mathematics involved, such that it can be applied to MORE! Of course abstract math has been used in physics. You told me you read Einstein (was it one paper only? Or one formula?), and obviously abstract math is involved. Stop quoting the man if he is such an idiot. Even linear algebra has an abstract way of being presented. Actually in most courses it is presented abstractly with axioms of vector spaces. That IS abstract, but yet VERY real.

Quote:

even in Quantum Physics, we DON'T KNOW if events are truly random, or if there is some underlying cause that we simply don't know of, or aren't capable of detecting (yet).

We don't really know anything with 100% certainty, contrary to what GSFY says. I have never claimed this with 100% certainty. However, if the uncertainty principle is true (which seems very likely), then we can never say anything for sure about a particles momentum and position. If we measure momentum with very much accuracy, we know less about position and vice versa. Since we never can determine with 100% certainty (no matter how hard we try), this is for us random, since we cannot determine it. In all of this, the following is important: This is NOT a statement about our inability to do experiments and measurements. It is a statement about nature itself.

The most ridiculous use of random is in calculating the odds on the lottery, based on random. The odds vary considerably when the balls are dirty, has static electricity, has humid air in the machine instead of dry air. If you had the ability to understand the whole of all the events that lead up to those numbers on those balls dropping, you would see that it is obviously not random.
Yet using math they calculate 1/156.000.000 for 42 numbers or something (fictitious number but as best as I can remember.)
Yet if you were to know as many factors as you can find, you would decrease the odds drastically towards your numbers coming up.

It is not random, but they try to make odds based on pure random that can only be used in AIR HEADS and abstract ideas of math that can never be proven in the physical world..

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #83 - Feb 7^th, 2010 at 9:05am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 6^th, 2010 at 8:39pm:

The most ridiculous use of random is in calculating the odds on the lottery, based on random. The odds vary considerably when the balls are dirty, has static electricity, has humid air in the machine instead of dry air. If you had the ability to understand the whole of all the events that lead up to those numbers on those balls dropping, you would see that it is obviously not random.
Yet using math they calculate 1/156.000.000 for 42 numbers or something (fictitious number but as best as I can remember.)
Yet if you were to know as many factors as you can find, you would decrease the odds drastically towards your numbers coming up.

It is not random, but they try to make odds based on pure random that can only be used in AIR HEADS and abstract ideas of math that can never be proven in the physical world..

And this has WHAT (?) to do with what I was saying? How?

I notice the following:

1) You are unable to answer my fundamental questions about Einstein's theories, and so hence I can only conclude that you have no idea what Einstein's theories are about. This means that in the area of physics, you are pretending to know what you are talking about, without having no clue.

2) You do not understand what "abstract math" means, and you discredit it as not valid, even though ALL concrete math have been subject to "abstractification" because of the way math is presented in the litterature. It means to me that you have not read a single book or paper on mathematics or physics.

3) You have not understood what I have said about randomness, and you are unable to adress my main points. You STILL talk about lottery and balls spinning around and being drawn, and you do not see that I look at this the same way as a dice throw. You are just able to come up with another example of "non-deterministic" randomness, i.e. randomness that in theory could be predicted (even though it is practically impossible), and a type of randomness that I actually AGREE is not really predictable (note that predictable and random is not the same concept here). But you fail to adress my PARTICULAR example of true randomness, because you don't understand it.

4) You are not interested in discussing sanely and healthy with intelligent people. You are interested in finding weak people that you can own and impress.

5) You do not understand physics, but claim you do. My conclusion is therefore that I can not trust you in other areas either. Including evolution.

6) You do not understand others arguments, and so hence you are not worthy any time. You make a fool out of yourself, but you do not realize it yourself. You have been caught in the act of lying about what you know, and you have been exposed as a person that has no clue what he is talking about.

7) You do not understand physics, let alone Einstein.

8) You do not understand mathematics, not even what the word "abstract" means in that context.

9) Even the creationists laugh.

10) I do too.

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #84 - Feb 7^th, 2010 at 11:10pm

What is wrong with your mind?

This is about "random" and the fact that it is nothing but a fantasy in physics, because your human mind cannot fathom the causes.

DONE! give up. You sound like an idiot and you are supposed to be smart. You have nothing to base your belief in random on.

It does not exist, neither does "deterministic events". Neither are true.

Don't you know this?

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #85 - Feb 8^th, 2010 at 1:33am

prolescum wrote on Feb 5^th, 2010 at 4:10pm:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Close this dumbf**k idiot forum and get back to your life, GSFY. Maybe in a few years, if you study hard enough, you'll be able to converse with the adults, but I don't hold out much hope.

This person is vile and disgusting. It is amazing how many of the Evodelusionists are like this. How can someone be so hateful over some stupid religious belief in Evodelusionism?

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"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
"Find the truth for yourself and don't succumb to indoctrination."

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #86 - Feb 8^th, 2010 at 4:27am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 7^th, 2010 at 11:10pm:

What is wrong with your mind?

This is about "random" and the fact that it is nothing but a fantasy in physics, because your human mind cannot fathom the causes.

DONE! give up. You sound like an idiot and you are supposed to be smart. You have nothing to base your belief in random on.

It does not exist, neither does "deterministic events". Neither are true.

Don't you know this?

This violates the law of randomness. Don't you know this?

You didn't understand any of my points. Neither did you answer my questions about Einstein's theories. What is relativity of time?

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #87 - Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm

metha wrote on Feb 8^th, 2010 at 4:27am:

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 7^th, 2010 at 11:10pm:

What is wrong with your mind?

This is about "random" and the fact that it is nothing but a fantasy in physics, because your human mind cannot fathom the causes.

DONE! give up. You sound like an idiot and you are supposed to be smart. You have nothing to base your belief in random on.

It does not exist, neither does "deterministic events". Neither are true.

Don't you know this?

This violates the law of randomness. Don't you know this?

You didn't understand any of my points. Neither did you answer my questions about Einstein's theories. What is relativity of time?

Random is imaginary, like the tooth fairy, and flying elephants on cartoons.

This is how intelligent you are?
So far you are not doing very well.

Why do you allow people to control your mind with delusional magical crap like "random".

Do you want to have your DNA scrambled to prove the effects of "random mutations". This is what they call random but even so, if you scramble DNA the process of scrambling DNA is cause and effect, and not random.

Do you understand?

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"Putting your faith in humanity has historically not been a good concept. Why do you think it is "different" now?"
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Dab33r

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #88 - Feb 9^th, 2010 at 7:12pm

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Random is imaginary, like the tooth fairy, and flying elephants on cartoons.

And with that, you completely disprove your statement that you believe only things that have been absolutely proven.

No legitimate scientist would ever make such an absolute statement about something for which there is insufficient evidence. There is no absolute proof for the claim that true random cannot possibly exist.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

This is how intelligent you are?
So far you are not doing very well.

You should be saying this to yourself.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Why do you allow people to control your mind with delusional magical crap like "random".

Yeah... instead, you should let GSFY control your mind with delusional magical crap like chimpanzees resulting from crossbreeding between humans and gorillas, and diamond being something other than carbon.

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Do you understand?

We do, obviously you don't.

Determinism means that there is a cause for every effect.

Non-determinism means that there are uncaused effects - in other words, truly random events.

You have spent pages arguing in favor of strict determinism, although you claim otherwise.

What you are failing to understand is that the word "random" in scientific parlance does not mean strict non-determinism. We are not claiming that anything in the Theory of Evolution requires non-determinism. We are saying, and you are failing to understand, that science uses the word random to mean that the causes for the events are either not known, or beyond our current capability to calculate, and either way are simply not predictable with any reliable degree of accuracy.

What you are also failing to understand is that, even if random meant "non-deterministic", that would still have absolutely zero impact on the Theory of Evolution other than to change our statements from "random genetic errors" to "unpredictable genetic errors". It would do nothing to invalidate the Theory as a whole.

If you want to disprove the Theory of Evolution, you're going to have to spend your energy on other angles of attack, because this one is a big non-starter.

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metha

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Re: There is no such thing as random mutations in genetics.
Reply #89 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 12:55am

GoodScienceForYou wrote on Feb 9^th, 2010 at 1:23pm:

Do you want to have your DNA scrambled to prove the effects of "random mutations". This is what they call random but even so, if you scramble DNA the process of scrambling DNA is cause and effect, and not random.

I have not talked about DNA and random mutations, because I cannot say that mutations are random, because I have no idea if they are or not. Therefore I do not make any claim on the matter. That's called intellectual honesty. Dab33r is absolutely correct when he says that it has nothing to do with evolution, because evolution do not rest on that. We can all try to disprove evolution, but this is NOT the way to attack it. What strikes me as very ironic, is that you argue that "ooooh.... evolution is so stupid, because they say life is an accident", but yet you say that there is no such thing as random. This would mean that the evolutionary scientists are CORRECT when they say that evolution is not a series of accidents.

If you do not understand the uncertainty principle, you have no business talking about true randomness. Just stop it.

IT'S A LAW. THERE. I WON!

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